LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Pasong Tirad]

Tenochtitlan was a metropolitan area with a canal system comparable to Venice's but with a population Paris.

And was somehow conquered by a few hundred Spaniards tens of thousands of miles away from their homeland. Clearly they were lacking in many areas.

Conquered by disease.

>Doesn't know about the quipu system the Inca used for their language
>Thinks they have enough knowledge to try and accurately call Native American civilizations "inferior" despite this

Fucking top kek.

I'm aware of that. It was still inferior to traditional writing systems that other civilizations had.

What? How, exactly, is one writing system superior to another?

[Yusseria]

And was somehow conquered by a few hundred Spaniards tens of thousands of miles away from their homeland. Clearly they were lacking in many areas.

And Haitian slaves killed the ever living shit out of white Frenchmen, but I don't use that as proof that French civilization is inferior.

That doesn't even follow.

[Yusseria]

Their civilizations were inferior both technologically and culturally to European civilizations at that time.

I can tolerate the claim that they were "technologically" inferior, but I'm dying to hear more of this "cultural" inferiority. How do you measure that?

Usually you can tell by how much human sacrifice is practiced.

[Yusseria]

And was somehow conquered by a few hundred Spaniards tens of thousands of miles away from their homeland. Clearly they were lacking in many areas.

Conquered by disease.

And superior force of arms.

I'm aware of that. It was still inferior to traditional writing systems that other civilizations had.

What? How, exactly, is one writing system superior to another?

Tying colored threads together is not writing.

[Torrocca]

What? How, exactly, is one writing system superior to another?

Tying colored threads together is not writing.

Who would win: numerous historians, anthropologists, linguists, etc. who call quipu a writing system

OR

one NSG boi

[Washington Resistance Army]

Tying colored threads together is not writing.

If people can read it how is it any less writing than, say, the random squiggles and squares used in east Asia?

[Washington Resistance Army]

Though I will somewhat side against Torrocca here and say I'm not sold on the idea of quipu a writing system. A few people push the idea yeah, but an equal or greater number are against it and the only place in the Americas we can definitely say developed writing was Mesoamerica.

[Yusseria]

Tying colored threads together is not writing.

Who would win: numerous historians, anthropologists, linguists, etc. who call quipu a writing system

OR

one NSG boi

You're completely full of shit. First of all, quipu wasn't a full writing systems. It's mainly used for record-keeping. It was mostly a fucking numerical system.

A quipu usually consisted of cotton or camelid fiber strings. The Inca people used them for collecting data and keeping records, monitoring tax obligations, properly collecting census records, calendrical information, and for military organization. The cords stored numeric and other values encoded as knots, often in a base ten positional system. A quipucould have only a few or thousands of cords.

Secondly, there is no consensus that quipu was a writing system. In fact, there's no definitive proof it was.

Some have argued that far more than numeric information is present and that quipus are a writing system. This would be an especially important discovery as there is no surviving record of written Quechua predating the Spanish invasion.

Sauce

[Yusseria]

Tying colored threads together is not writing.

If people can read it how is it any less writing than, say, the random squiggles and squares used in east Asia?

Because that wasn't what it was for. It was mainly a numerical system.

[Pasong Tirad]

Tying colored threads together is not writing.

I love it when goalposts get moved suddenly.

Whether or not it was a writing system wasn't the argument you were trying to make. You said it was "inferior" as a writing system to other "traditional" writing systems. Which led to my question of how exactly do you quantify one writing system as inferior or superior to another?

[Yusseria]

Tying colored threads together is not writing.

I love it when goalposts get moved suddenly.

Whether or not it was a writing system wasn't the argument you were trying to make. You said it was "inferior" as a writing system to other "traditional" writing systems. Which led to my question of how exactly do you quantify one writing system as inferior or superior to another?

Because it was not even a writing system. It was a numerical system. So yes, it is inferior because it was not a fucking full writing system.

[Pasong Tirad]

I love it when goalposts get moved suddenly.

Whether or not it was a writing system wasn't the argument you were trying to make. You said it was "inferior" as a writing system to other "traditional" writing systems. Which led to my question of how exactly do you quantify one writing system as inferior or superior to another?

Because it was not even a writing system. It was a numerical system. So yes, it is inferior because it was not a fucking full writing system.

Even the Wikipedia page you linked said there's valid arguments to be made for quipu being a writing system, with evidence pointing to the quipu having literary use. It's literally a whole subsection of the Wiki page.

But I digress. That still wasn't your argument. Your argument is that quipu, being "knots on a string" is inferior to "traditional writing" because it's "knots on a string." Which makes absolutely no goddamn sense because how are you even able to quantify what kind of writing system is superior to another?

[Liriena]

I can tolerate the claim that they were "technologically" inferior, but I'm dying to hear more of this "cultural" inferiority. How do you measure that?

Usually you can tell by how much human sacrifice is practiced.

Welp, there goes pre-capitalist "Western civilization", on account of all the ritualistic, religiously-motivated torture and murder of heretics, witches, Jewish people and native Americans.

[Pasong Tirad]

Usually you can tell by how much human sacrifice is practiced.

Welp, there goes pre-capitalist "Western civilization", on account of all the ritualistic, religiously-motivated torture and murder of heretics, witches, Jewish people and native Americans.

No no no, if the killing wasn't religiously motivated, it doesn't count! That's just... um... *looks at notes* Genocide? No, that can't be right.

[Northern Davincia]

Usually you can tell by how much human sacrifice is practiced.

Welp, there goes pre-capitalist "Western civilization", on account of all the ritualistic, religiously-motivated torture and murder of heretics, witches, Jewish people and native Americans.

If you're executing someone as punishment for a crime, it isn't a sacrifice.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Welp, there goes pre-capitalist "Western civilization", on account of all the ritualistic, religiously-motivated torture and murder of heretics, witches, Jewish people and native Americans.

If you're executing someone as punishment for a crime, it isn't a sacrifice.

I don’t think the Jews, "witches" and heretics committed crimes, however.

[Proctopeo]

Though I will somewhat side against Torrocca here and say I'm not sold on the idea of quipu a writing system. A few people push the idea yeah, but an equal or greater number are against it and the only place in the Americas we can definitely say developed writing was Mesoamerica.

The best thing I've seen to call it is "proto-writing". It's not writing, but it still does store information in a visual medium (albeit, mainly for numbers).

[Yusseria]

Usually you can tell by how much human sacrifice is practiced.

Welp, there goes pre-capitalist "Western civilization", on account of all the ritualistic, religiously-motivated torture and murder of heretics, witches, Jewish people and native Americans.

These things usually did not happen on the scale they did in the Americas and you know that.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Though I will somewhat side against Torrocca here and say I'm not sold on the idea of quipu a writing system. A few people push the idea yeah, but an equal or greater number are against it and the only place in the Americas we can definitely say developed writing was Mesoamerica.

The best thing I've seen to call it is "proto-writing". It's not writing, but it still does store information in a visual medium (albeit, mainly for numbers).

It was more of a means of recording numerical information than actual writing, but it came real darn close to developing into proper writing.

The Mayans on the other hand had actual writing.

[Yusseria]

Because it was not even a writing system. It was a numerical system. So yes, it is inferior because it was not a fucking full writing system.

Even the Wikipedia page you linked said there's valid arguments to be made for quipu being a writing system, with evidence pointing to the quipu having literary use. It's literally a whole subsection of the Wiki page.

But I digress. That still wasn't your argument. Your argument is that quipu, being "knots on a string" is inferior to "traditional writing" because it's "knots on a string." Which makes absolutely no goddamn sense because how are you even able to quantify what kind of writing system is superior to another?

You could argue it, yes. But there is no definitive proof or consensus, and as stated before it was mainly a numerical system.

And again, it was inferior because it literally wasn't a full writing system.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

Welp, there goes pre-capitalist "Western civilization", on account of all the ritualistic, religiously-motivated torture and murder of heretics, witches, Jewish people and native Americans.

Witch-hunting only gathered up steam in the 17th century because of the chaos and bloodshed of the Thirty Years War. People were lashing out at a time of utter shit. It's horrible and a tragedy, but to compare it to institutionalised mass murder done on a daily basis to sustain mere normalcy (such as it was in Mesoamerica) is disingenuous.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Welp, there goes pre-capitalist "Western civilization", on account of all the ritualistic, religiously-motivated torture and murder of heretics, witches, Jewish people and native Americans.

Witch-hunting only gathered up steam in the 17th century because of the chaos and bloodshed of the Thirty Years War. People were lashing out at a time of utter shit. It's horrible and a tragedy, but to compare it to institutionalised mass murder done on a daily basis to sustain mere normalcy (such as it was in Mesoamerica) is disingenuous.

Aztecs would literally sacrifice hundreds, if not thousands of people on a regular basis, with specific gods requiring particularly cruel twists to said sacrifices (such as Tlaloc requiring the tears of children, which innately implies suffering).

One event had them sacrifice between 10,000 and 80,000 people for one lengthy ceremony, but it might be an exaggeration.

[Pasong Tirad]

Even the Wikipedia page you linked said there's valid arguments to be made for quipu being a writing system, with evidence pointing to the quipu having literary use. It's literally a whole subsection of the Wiki page.

But I digress. That still wasn't your argument. Your argument is that quipu, being "knots on a string" is inferior to "traditional writing" because it's "knots on a string." Which makes absolutely no goddamn sense because how are you even able to quantify what kind of writing system is superior to another?

You could argue it, yes. But there is no definitive proof or consensus, and as stated before it was mainly a numerical system.

And again, it was inferior because it literally wasn't a full writing system.

It's a bullshit argument, then, because if you believe that it's inferior because it's not a writing system, then you're comparing a monkey to a fish based on their ability to climb a tree.

Which isn't even the main point. The belief that there's such a thing as a "superior writing system" is a load of crap.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

Aztecs would literally sacrifice hundreds, if not thousands of people on a regular basis, with specific gods requiring particularly cruel twists to said sacrifices (such as Tlaloc requiring the tears of children, which innately implies suffering).

One event had them sacrifice between 10,000 and 80,000 people for one lengthy ceremony, but it might be an exaggeration.

To add on this, historians estimate the number of witches that were executed in Europe to be between 40,000 to 100,000, based on 12,000 known convictions that ended in executions. Aztecs killed an estimated 20,000 to 250,000 a year, meaning that by comparing lowest estimates, the Aztecs killed more people in two years than European witch hunters in several centuries.

[Northern Davincia]

If you're executing someone as punishment for a crime, it isn't a sacrifice.

I don’t think the Jews, "witches" and heretics committed crimes, however.

Jewry, witchcraft, and heresy were indeed crimes in a few places.