LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

That the Inca's lacked the wheel or any beasts of burden make their accomplishments all the more impressive ditto for the Aztecs who both had massive monuments and impressive irrigation and road networks. Heck, the Incas didn't even really have a written language

The more you're trying to defend them, the worst an image you're painting of them ironically.

as they were doing all that neato stuff and cultivating one of the most prosperous empires known to man.

Press X to doubt.

The human sacrifice angle isn't particularly convincing when taken with the fact the Romans did human sacrifice on the regular.

>Romans did human sacrifice on the regular
That much ignorance actually caused me physical pain, if you try and pull a gotcha, at least don't be so painstakingly wrong next time please.

>pissing on the Incas about human sacrifice

Did everybody forget about the fucking Aztecs or what? They were excessive even by Mesoamerican standards for fuck’s sake!

[Aellex]

>pissing on the Incas about human sacrifice

Did everybody forget about the fucking Aztecs or what? They were excessive even by Mesoamerican standards for fuck’s sake!

It's not because your neighbor practices genocide as his religion that it's suddenly ok for you to """only just sacrifice some guys""".

[Liriena]

That's still historically questionable. The Incas, the Islamic Golden Age, multiple African empires... all of them existed after the Classical Era, were quite complex, prosperous and progressive in their own ways. The fact that they eventually came to an end doesn't mean that they were "primitive" or "uncivilized".

Hell, let's not forget the fact that Zera Yacob's Hatata beat much of the Enlightenment to the punch.

The Incas couldn't even figure out how to invent the wheel

So you are of the opinion that to be "civilized" is defined primarily by inventing the wheel?

(not to mention that they performed human sacrifice at, while not quite the industrial one of the Aztec, way too uncomfortably high a rate)

Religiously motivated mass murder, while not of the exact same sort, was also being carried out in Europe at the time, though. See: the witch hunts.

the Islamic Golden Age was mostly just leeching off the Ancient Greek and Contemporary Byzantine culture

Which doesn't make then "uncivilized".

and as for the multiple African empires, they really were nothing much if one is to be genuinely honest.

In what sense?

Civilization isn't a Boolean variable limited to a True/False dichotomy and rather work in shades.

We can agree there.

[Ostroeuropa]

Upon considering the matter further I agree Carlsons comments pose a problem given that he isn't consistently on the right side of these issues enough to warrant a charitable interpretation. The faggots comment could only justifiably be ignored if he were active in pushing acceptance of the complexity of sexuality rather than merely appropriating that discourse to push for traditionalism, and so shouldn't be viewed as reflecting the term back at the user to emphasize how it is acceptable for a heterosexual man to find other men attractive. Tucker consistently pushes traditionalism and a "Yer dad" view of homosexuality and trans issues.

The Iraqis comment is also a problem because of his narrative of exclusion rather than uplift. However I think it strains credulity to conclude that a media personality who is now known for being consistently against adventurism by the US military can honestly be targeted for racism against Iraqis prior to the more warhungry commentators. I see no reason to make the perfect the enemy of the mediocre because the terrible has demanded it be so.

I don't see a problem with the other ones and feel they're taken out of context.

[Fahran]

>Romans did human sacrifice on the regular
That much ignorance actually caused me physical pain, if you try and pull a gotcha, at least don't be so painstakingly wrong next time please.

Slitting the throats of captured prisons in temple complexes after a triumph was a regular occurrence and, while the Romans claimed not to practice human sacrifice, these triumphal ritual killings bear a close resemblance to it and may have originated from older, more overtly religious practices.

[Valrifell]

>Romans did human sacrifice on the regular
That much ignorance actually caused me physical pain, if you try and pull a gotcha, at least don't be so painstakingly wrong next time please.

Slitting the throats of captured prisons in temple complexes after a triumph was a regular occurrence and, while the Romans claimed not to practice human sacrifice, these triumphal ritual killings bear a close resemblance to it and may have originated from older, more overtly religious practices.

"Suffocating political prisoners outside of the Temple of Jupiter was just a coincidence, h-honest"

[Valrifell]

That the Inca's lacked the wheel or any beasts of burden make their accomplishments all the more impressive ditto for the Aztecs who both had massive monuments and impressive irrigation and road networks. Heck, the Incas didn't even really have a written language

The more you're trying to defend them, the worst an image you're painting of them ironically.

"You're doing a bad job and you're wrong. I'm not going to say how or why I'm right, but you're wrong"

10/10 I expect nothing less from the French.

[Conserative Morality]

Slitting the throats of captured prisons in temple complexes after a triumph was a regular occurrence and, while the Romans claimed not to practice human sacrifice, these triumphal ritual killings bear a close resemblance to it and may have originated from older, more overtly religious practices.

"Suffocating political prisoners outside of the Temple of Jupiter was just a coincidence, h-honest"

TIL human sacrifice is just religious states executing people

[Valrifell]

"Suffocating political prisoners outside of the Temple of Jupiter was just a coincidence, h-honest"

TIL human sacrifice is just religious states executing people

Are you, what, implying the Triumph had no religious undertones specifically involved whatsoever? The Romans could have easily avoided the charge by executing them somewhere else.

[Conserative Morality]

Are you, what, implying the Triumph had no religious undertones specifically involved whatsoever? The Romans could have easily avoided the charge by executing them somewhere else.

No, I'm implying literally every action the Roman state undertook had religious undertones. Elections were considered sacred. Assemblies were held on the Field Of Mars. I don't know really what you expect from a society with a temple on every corner and twice as many gods.

[Aellex]

So you are of the opinion that to be "civilized" is defined primarily by inventing the wheel?

No, rather I'm of the opinion that not even being able invent it is a good criteria to be classified as uncivilized.

Religiously motivated mass murder, while not of the exact same sort, was also being carried out in Europe at the time, though. See: the witch hunts.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, except pulling people's hearts and skins by the tens thousand isn't exactly the same thing as burning a handful of poisoner hags.
Not to mention you're off by a couple hundred years at the very least.

Which doesn't make then "uncivilized".

Yeah. I said as so in the part of my quote you "conveniently" cut off.

In what sense?

They were shit, tbh.

We can agree there.

And Occidentals and Japano-Chinese are the ones that have the brightest shade of it.

[Aellex]

Slitting the throats of captured prisons in temple complexes after a triumph was a regular occurrence and, while the Romans claimed not to practice human sacrifice, these triumphal ritual killings bear a close resemblance to it and may have originated from older, more overtly religious practices.

I mean, they also had death row inmates get sodomized (to death usually) by bulls, stabbed with multiple swords at once or forced to put their arms over pyres live on stage with the promise of being freed if they "didn't break character" just because they liked that extra-touch of realism in their theaters play.

The Romans were fucking mad-lads, that was what they were and I think you're seeing religious undertone where there most likely weren't.

[Fahran]

The Romans were fucking mad-lads, that what they were and I think you're seeing religious undertone where there most likely weren't.

I'm not certain there's really that much of a categorical difference when we're talking about ritualized murders at temple complexes in societies where very public or private action often had religious overtones. The only real difference is that the Aztecs preserved the mythology surrounding these rituals whereas the Romans insisted fervently that they weren't practicing human sacrifice when the tradition likely originated as a form of human sacrifice.

[Aellex]

"You're doing a bad job and you're wrong. I'm not going to say how or why I'm right, but you're wrong"

10/10 I expect nothing less from the French.

"They didn't have the wheel nor animal husbandry and even less a writing system b-b-but they tots were a very great empire and shitz, g-guys! I-I swear!"

I mean, usually just pointing to the obvious is enough for people to make connections, only with puppies do you need to go the extra-step and rub their noses in the puddle of piss for them to understand.
Is that really necessary with you? I honestly doubt it, I think you're smarter than that fam.

[Torrocca]

That isn't racism.

Carlson: "Iraq is a primitive place filled semi-literate primitive monkeys"
Some totally left-wing nationalist who definitely doesn't hate non-white people: "He's technically correct and there's nothing racist about calling the entire population of a country 'primitive monkeys' even though 'primitive' and 'monkeys' as insults hurled at entire populations has kinda always been a trademark of racism"

Nationalism really rots even the best brains

My only shame is having missed this absolute shitfest of Ostro, self-proclaimed """leftist""", defending a far-right stooge and blatant racism at the same time.

I can't wait for him to continue to claim he's a leftist. It's so fun making up blatant lies that a pre-schooler could see through!

That's still historically questionable. The Incas, the Islamic Golden Age, multiple African empires... all of them existed after the Classical Era, were quite complex, prosperous and progressive in their own ways. The fact that they eventually came to an end doesn't mean that they were "primitive" or "uncivilized".

Hell, let's not forget the fact that Zera Yacob's Hatata beat much of the Enlightenment to the punch.

The Incas couldn't even figure out how to invent the wheel

The Inca knew what wheels were, ffs; in fact, the Americas as a whole knew what wheels were, as demonstrated by this toy from Veracruz, Mexico, from 100-200 AD.

I know this is going to be a shocking revelation for you, but a mountain society that lacked beasts of burden probably had no use for wheeled tools.

(not to mention that they performed human sacrifice at, while not quite the industrial one of the Aztec, way too uncomfortably high a rate)

The Romans and numerous other places usually considered to be "civilized" in the Western sphere also practiced human sacrifice on quite large scales. Your point?

the Islamic Golden Age was mostly just leeching off the Ancient Greek and Contemporary Byzantine culture (tho I will say it was the period the Middle East was at its best post Roman's Empire fall)

And the Greeks and following Byzantines borrowed their cultures from all sorts of neighbors of theirs. Your point, again?

and as for the multiple African empires, they really were nothing much if one is to be genuinely honest.

They were examples of civilization, and that's all that matters.

Also, >TFW Carthage and Egypt (and the multiple following iterations of Egypt, like the Ptolemy dynasty or the Islamic Egypt) "were nothing much"

[Valrifell]

Are you, what, implying the Triumph had no religious undertones specifically involved whatsoever? The Romans could have easily avoided the charge by executing them somewhere else.

No, I'm implying literally every action the Roman state undertook had religious undertones. Elections were considered sacred. Assemblies were held on the Field Of Mars. I don't know really what you expect from a society with a temple on every corner and twice as many gods.

That's true, the Empire and Republic were essentially like most classical civilizations in that the church was a bureaucratic arm of the government.

They still undertook human sacrifice.

[Torrocca]

No, I'm implying literally every action the Roman state undertook had religious undertones. Elections were considered sacred. Assemblies were held on the Field Of Mars. I don't know really what you expect from a society with a temple on every corner and twice as many gods.

That's true, the Empire and Republic were essentially like most classical civilizations in that the church was a bureaucratic arm of the government.

They still undertook human sacrifice.

It's civilized when Europeans do it, though, if our French friend's criteria for what makes or breaks the "civilized" status of any civilization is what we're going off of.

[Yusseria]

Carlson: "Iraq is a primitive place filled semi-literate primitive monkeys"
Some totally left-wing nationalist who definitely doesn't hate non-white people: "He's technically correct and there's nothing racist about calling the entire population of a country 'primitive monkeys' even though 'primitive' and 'monkeys' as insults hurled at entire populations has kinda always been a trademark of racism"

Nationalism really rots even the best brains

My only shame is having missed this absolute shitfest of Ostro, self-proclaimed """leftist""", defending a far-right stooge and blatant racism at the same time.

I can't wait for him to continue to claim he's a leftist. It's so fun making up blatant lies that a pre-schooler could see through!

The Incas couldn't even figure out how to invent the wheel

The Inca knew what wheels were, ffs; in fact, the Americas as a whole knew what wheels were, as demonstrated by this toy from Veracruz, Mexico, from 100-200 AD.

I know this is going to be a shocking revelation for you, but a mountain society that lacked beasts of burden probably had no use for wheeled tools.

(not to mention that they performed human sacrifice at, while not quite the industrial one of the Aztec, way too uncomfortably high a rate)

The Romans and numerous other places usually considered to be "civilized" in the Western sphere also practiced human sacrifice on quite large scales. Your point?

the Islamic Golden Age was mostly just leeching off the Ancient Greek and Contemporary Byzantine culture (tho I will say it was the period the Middle East was at its best post Roman's Empire fall)

And the Greeks and following Byzantines borrowed their cultures from all sorts of neighbors of theirs. Your point, again?

and as for the multiple African empires, they really were nothing much if one is to be genuinely honest.

They were examples of civilization, and that's all that matters.

Also, >TFW Carthage and Egypt (and the multiple following iterations of Egypt, like the Ptolemy dynasty or the Islamic Egypt) "were nothing much"

Their civilizations were inferior both technologically and culturally to European civilizations at that time.

[Valrifell]

My only shame is having missed this absolute shitfest of Ostro, self-proclaimed """leftist""", defending a far-right stooge and blatant racism at the same time.

I can't wait for him to continue to claim he's a leftist. It's so fun making up blatant lies that a pre-schooler could see through!



The Inca knew what wheels were, ffs; in fact, the Americas as a whole knew what wheels were, as demonstrated by this toy from Veracruz, Mexico, from 100-200 AD.

I know this is going to be a shocking revelation for you, but a mountain society that lacked beasts of burden probably had no use for wheeled tools.



The Romans and numerous other places usually considered to be "civilized" in the Western sphere also practiced human sacrifice on quite large scales. Your point?



And the Greeks and following Byzantines borrowed their cultures from all sorts of neighbors of theirs. Your point, again?



They were examples of civilization, and that's all that matters.

Also, >TFW Carthage and Egypt (and the multiple following iterations of Egypt, like the Ptolemy dynasty or the Islamic Egypt) "were nothing much"

Their civilizations were inferior both technologically and culturally to European civilizations at that time.

Tenochtitlan was a metropolitan area with a canal system comparable to Venice's but with a population Paris.

[Washington Resistance Army]

The Romans and numerous other places usually considered to be "civilized" in the Western sphere also practiced human sacrifice on quite large scales. Your point?

You're drastically overstating this. While yes some human sacrifice did happen very sparingly in the Greco-Roman world it was almost always seen as a barbaric practice and if I'm not mistaken some Emperor or another outright banned it across the entire Empire.

[Torrocca]

My only shame is having missed this absolute shitfest of Ostro, self-proclaimed """leftist""", defending a far-right stooge and blatant racism at the same time.

I can't wait for him to continue to claim he's a leftist. It's so fun making up blatant lies that a pre-schooler could see through!



The Inca knew what wheels were, ffs; in fact, the Americas as a whole knew what wheels were, as demonstrated by this toy from Veracruz, Mexico, from 100-200 AD.

I know this is going to be a shocking revelation for you, but a mountain society that lacked beasts of burden probably had no use for wheeled tools.



The Romans and numerous other places usually considered to be "civilized" in the Western sphere also practiced human sacrifice on quite large scales. Your point?



And the Greeks and following Byzantines borrowed their cultures from all sorts of neighbors of theirs. Your point, again?



They were examples of civilization, and that's all that matters.

Also, >TFW Carthage and Egypt (and the multiple following iterations of Egypt, like the Ptolemy dynasty or the Islamic Egypt) "were nothing much"

Their civilizations were inferior both technologically and culturally to European civilizations at that time.

The Inca and Aztecs (as well as most Sub-Saharan African kingdoms and empires) were both on a near-equivalent technological footing to Europe, barring things such as guns or ships. They all understood metalworking, even if they didn't use it the same way Europeans did (in the case of the Inca and Aztecs, who mostly used it ceremonially for jewelry and the like), and they all built massive, sweeping cities, to the point where civilizations divided from Eurasiafrica have settlements equal in size, scope, and population to European ones such as Rome.

And, "inferior cultures"? Lmao, what a fucking meme.

[Valrifell]

The Romans and numerous other places usually considered to be "civilized" in the Western sphere also practiced human sacrifice on quite large scales. Your point?

You're drastically overstating this. While yes some human sacrifice did happen very sparingly in the Greco-Roman world it was almost always seen as a barbaric practice and if I'm not mistaken some Emperor or another outright banned it across the entire Empire.

Probably correct, but I don't know off the top of my head.

The weird fact of the matter is human sacrifice was a common practice for a lot of religions for some reason.

[Torrocca]

The Romans and numerous other places usually considered to be "civilized" in the Western sphere also practiced human sacrifice on quite large scales. Your point?

You're drastically overstating this. While yes some human sacrifice did happen very sparingly in the Greco-Roman world it was almost always seen as a barbaric practice and if I'm not mistaken some Emperor or another outright banned it across the entire Empire.

It's not that drastic of an overstatement.

[Yusseria]

Their civilizations were inferior both technologically and culturally to European civilizations at that time.

Tenochtitlan was a metropolitan area with a canal system comparable to Venice's but with a population Paris.

And was somehow conquered by a few hundred Spaniards tens of thousands of miles away from their homeland. Clearly they were lacking in many areas.

[Yusseria]

Their civilizations were inferior both technologically and culturally to European civilizations at that time.

The Inca and Aztecs (as well as most Sub-Saharan African kingdoms and empires) were both on a near-equivalent technological footing to Europe, barring things such as guns or ships. They all understood metalworking, even if they didn't use it the same way Europeans did (in the case of the Inca and Aztecs, who mostly used it ceremonially for jewelry and the like), and they all built massive, sweeping cities, to the point where civilizations divided from Eurasiafrica have settlements equal in size, scope, and population to European ones such as Rome.

The Incans didn't even have a writing system, and the Aztecs were still far behind the Euopeans technologically.

And, "inferior cultures"? Lmao, what a fucking meme.

The Incans and Aztecs both had a culture built upon human sacrifice. So yes, I'd say it is was pretty inferior.