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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
Greater Westralia
Envoy
 
Posts: 227
Founded: Nov 13, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater Westralia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:33 pm

If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.
Unapologetic WA Supremacist

We did it once, we'll do it again!

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Yusseria
Minister
 
Posts: 2342
Founded: Feb 02, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Yusseria » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:34 pm

Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.

Now, now. Mao may have killed 45 million people, but at least he wasn't a Nazi!
Yusseria - The Prussia of NationStates
There is nothing wrong with Islamaphobia

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LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:34 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:That's why I mentioned it fam. Your past mistakes shall ever haunt you.


Censorship in general tends to be a hard sell, especially in places that like not being censored, like America. Besides that, censorship is a dangerous road to go down, and not worth the risk. Especially not for any type of "libertarian" where a nebulous entity having the ability to silence others is generally frowned upon.

Given that plenty of Western democracies have implemented hate speech laws and have yet to descend into Stalinist repression, this borders on a slippery slope fallacy.

It doesn't have to so down to Stalinist levels of oppression to be problematic. Under the UK's hate speech laws, YouTuber Count Dankula got arrested over a stupid joke.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:35 pm

Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.


Supporting violence itself isn't and most definitely shouldn't be censored. Not all violence is created equally, and not all violence is done to further the goals of an authoritarian or a genocidal regime.

I'm not against censoring authoritarianism, though; the paradox of intolerance is a real thing, and I'm okay with it if it ultimately means preserving actual liberty.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11801
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
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Postby Proctopeo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:36 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:That's why I mentioned it fam. Your past mistakes shall ever haunt you.


Please stop.

Pa gen okenn.

Censorship in general tends to be a hard sell, especially in places that like not being censored, like America. Besides that, censorship is a dangerous road to go down, and not worth the risk. Especially not for any type of "libertarian" where a nebulous entity having the ability to silence others is generally frowned upon.


I'm pretty certain that censoring Nazism is a thing most leftists can comfortably agree on.

Left-"libertarians" and literal Stalinists make weird bedfellows when it comes to suppressing an ideology.

You'll be happy to hear I don't advocate for the suppression of any leftist ideology, just the development of a stigma against the extreme ones ;)

Byzconia wrote:Given that plenty of Western democracies have implemented hate speech laws and have yet to descend into Stalinist repression, this borders on a slippery slope fallacy.

Cool, but I never mentioned Stalin or Stalinism.
Only that the ability to silence others is generally frowned upon. Doesn't mean Western democracies haven't been idiots, and that it won't bite them in the ass in the future.

Byzconia wrote:"Everyone who disagrees with me just refuses to see the obvious objective reality!"

But I'll bite, what's the "evident difference."

Defending implies a degree of sympathy and support. Permission implies tolerance, which itself doesn't in any way imply sympathy or support. It's that simple.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Byzconia wrote:Given that plenty of Western democracies have implemented hate speech laws and have yet to descend into Stalinist repression, this borders on a slippery slope fallacy.

It doesn't have to so down to Stalinist levels of oppression to be problematic. Under the UK's hate speech laws, YouTuber Count Dankula got arrested over a stupid joke.

He was clearly training that pug to be the next Hitler, you crypto-Nazi! /s
ec 4.38 soc -3.95
I don't like most tankies/red fascists
China Lied, People Died.
6500 Year-Old Soomer
RIP the LWDT and RWDT, may their legacy live on

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Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9979
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:37 pm

Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.

Fuck yeah, censor authoritarians.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I'm pretty certain that censoring Nazism is a thing most leftists can comfortably agree on.

Left-"libertarians" and literal Stalinists make weird bedfellows when it comes to suppressing an ideology.

You'll be happy to hear I don't advocate for the suppression of any leftist ideology, just the development of a stigma against the extreme ones ;)


It's the paradox of intolerance, famalam. There's no problem with suppressing authoritarianism (including Stalinists, of course, since you have an odd fascination with trying to lump us in with them) to preserve liberty.
Last edited by Torrocca on Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Yusseria
Minister
 
Posts: 2342
Founded: Feb 02, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Yusseria » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.

Fuck yeah, censor authoritarians.

God, the irony.
Yusseria - The Prussia of NationStates
There is nothing wrong with Islamaphobia

User avatar
Greater Westralia
Envoy
 
Posts: 227
Founded: Nov 13, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater Westralia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm

Torrocca wrote:Supporting violence itself isn't and most definitely shouldn't be censored. Not all violence is created equally, and not all violence is done to further the goals of an authoritarian or a genocidal regime.

I'm not against censoring authoritarianism, though; the paradox of intolerance is a real thing, and I'm okay with it if it ultimately means preserving actual liberty.

See, I'm disappointed. I thought you libertarian socialists could be relied to rail against the excesses of revolutionary Marxist-Leninist state, but when the chips fall down all you care about is killing the bourgeoisie.
Unapologetic WA Supremacist

We did it once, we'll do it again!

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6945
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.

Fuck yeah, censor authoritarians.

At least you're principled in that regard.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

User avatar
Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11801
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:39 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Left-"libertarians" and literal Stalinists make weird bedfellows when it comes to suppressing an ideology.

You'll be happy to hear I don't advocate for the suppression of any leftist ideology, just the development of a stigma against the extreme ones ;)


It's the paradox of intolerance, famalam. There's no problem with suppressing authoritarianism to preserve liberty.

I mean, sure, but if I went with that line of thinking I'd have to suppress you too.
As much fun as that might be you're more useful alive and free than alive and in a political prison.
ec 4.38 soc -3.95
I don't like most tankies/red fascists
China Lied, People Died.
6500 Year-Old Soomer
RIP the LWDT and RWDT, may their legacy live on

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6363
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:39 pm

I'm sorry to be steryotypical but I have 0, absolute 0 qualms about rightists of any flavour being de-platformed, silenced and made to feel afraid.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

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Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9979
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:39 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Fuck yeah, censor authoritarians.

God, the irony.

Torrocca wrote:It's the paradox of intolerance, famalam. There's no problem with suppressing authoritarianism (including Stalinists, of course, since you have an odd fascination with trying to lump us in with them) to preserve liberty.

User avatar
Lamoni
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 7725
Founded: Antiquity
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lamoni » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:40 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
Saiwania wrote:
Yes! Brexit and the right winning in the Netherlands is only the beginning. The dawn of a right wing sweep and new order across Europe and the wider western world is coming and soon!

So what you're saying is we have to shoot a bunch of Nazis all over again?

What the hell, I'm game.


How about we NOT go down the road of advocating death, shall we?
National Anthem
Resides in Greater Dienstad. (Former) Mayor of Equilism.
I'm a Senior N&I RP Mentor. Questions? TG me!
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."


Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.


Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.

Part of the Meow family in Gameplay, and a GORRAM GAME MOD!

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:41 pm

Greater Westralia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:Supporting violence itself isn't and most definitely shouldn't be censored. Not all violence is created equally, and not all violence is done to further the goals of an authoritarian or a genocidal regime.

I'm not against censoring authoritarianism, though; the paradox of intolerance is a real thing, and I'm okay with it if it ultimately means preserving actual liberty.

See, I'm disappointed. I thought you libertarian socialists could be relied to rail against the excesses of revolutionary Marxist-Leninist state, but when the chips fall down all you care about is killing the bourgeoisie.


Literally what lmao

TIL'd not tolerating intolerance = "LET'S SHOOT SOME BOURGIES WOO I LOVE YOU STALIN"
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Yusseria
Minister
 
Posts: 2342
Founded: Feb 02, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Yusseria » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:41 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Yusseria wrote:God, the irony.

Torrocca wrote:It's the paradox of intolerance, famalam. There's no problem with suppressing authoritarianism (including Stalinists, of course, since you have an odd fascination with trying to lump us in with them) to preserve liberty.

Censorship is an inherently authoritarian tactic. You're literally using authoritarianism to shut down authoritarians, yet you lack the self-awareness to realize this.
Yusseria - The Prussia of NationStates
There is nothing wrong with Islamaphobia

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:41 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:

Censorship is an inherently authoritarian tactic. You're literally using authoritarianism to shut down authoritarians, yet you lack the self-awareness to realize this.


Fam, there's a reason it's called the PARADOX of Intolerance.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:42 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It's the paradox of intolerance, famalam. There's no problem with suppressing authoritarianism to preserve liberty.

I mean, sure, but if I went with that line of thinking I'd have to suppress you too.
As much fun as that might be you're more useful alive and free than alive and in a political prison.


Ah, yeah, because I'm totally an authoritarian douchebag with a hinge for genociding kulaks and shit. :roll:
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6363
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:42 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:

Censorship is an inherently authoritarian tactic. You're literally using authoritarianism to shut down authoritarians, yet you lack the self-awareness to realize this.

you can use a scalpel to remove a tumour and cut a throat. same tool, different procedures.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
Yusseria
Minister
 
Posts: 2342
Founded: Feb 02, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Yusseria » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:43 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Yusseria wrote:Censorship is an inherently authoritarian tactic. You're literally using authoritarianism to shut down authoritarians, yet you lack the self-awareness to realize this.


Fam, there's a reason it's called the PARADOX of Intolerance.

Yeah, I know there's a reason you decided to make that up.
Yusseria - The Prussia of NationStates
There is nothing wrong with Islamaphobia

User avatar
Greater Westralia
Envoy
 
Posts: 227
Founded: Nov 13, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater Westralia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:44 pm

Torrocca wrote:Literally what lmao

TIL'd not tolerating intolerance = "LET'S SHOOT SOME BOURGIES WOO I LOVE YOU STALIN"

Yeah, I really misread your statement, sorry for that.

But lets be honest, that's what you really want.
Unapologetic WA Supremacist

We did it once, we'll do it again!

User avatar
Yusseria
Minister
 
Posts: 2342
Founded: Feb 02, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Yusseria » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:45 pm

Crysuko wrote:
Yusseria wrote:Censorship is an inherently authoritarian tactic. You're literally using authoritarianism to shut down authoritarians, yet you lack the self-awareness to realize this.

you can use a scalpel to remove a tumour and cut a throat. same tool, different procedures.

The end result here is the same. You're still shutting down certain people's free speech because of their beliefs, which is inherently authoritarian.

If you're so uncomfortable with admitting this then perhaps you need to reevaluate your beliefs.
Yusseria - The Prussia of NationStates
There is nothing wrong with Islamaphobia

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:45 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Fam, there's a reason it's called the PARADOX of Intolerance.

Yeah, I know there's a reason you decided to make that up.


Nah. I only fidged the "tolerance" part, which is what it really is called.

Greater Westralia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:Literally what lmao

TIL'd not tolerating intolerance = "LET'S SHOOT SOME BOURGIES WOO I LOVE YOU STALIN"

Yeah, I really misread your statement, sorry for that.

But lets be honest, that's what you really want.


No, actually.
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Crysuko
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6363
Founded: Feb 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Crysuko » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:45 pm

Greater Westralia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:Literally what lmao

TIL'd not tolerating intolerance = "LET'S SHOOT SOME BOURGIES WOO I LOVE YOU STALIN"

Yeah, I really misread your statement, sorry for that.

But lets be honest, that's what you really want.

I (at least) don't believe in mass murder, and going around ending lives at random (regardless of who they are) is not what could be called revolutionary praxis.
Quotes:
Xilonite wrote: cookies are heresy.

Kelinfort wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:A terrorist attack on a disabled center doesn't make a lot of sense, unless to show no one is safe.

This will take some time to figure out, i am afraid.

"No one is safe, not even your most vulnerable and insecure!"

Cesopium wrote:Welp let's hope armies of 10 million don't just roam around and Soviet their way through everything.

Yugoslav Memes wrote:
Victoriala II wrote:Ur mom has value

one week ban for flaming xd

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Much better than the kulak smoothies. Their texture was suspiciously grainy.

Syndicalist, vehement anti-fascist.
I USE Qs INSTEAD OF Qs

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9979
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:45 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Fam, there's a reason it's called the PARADOX of Intolerance.

Yeah, I know there's a reason you decided to make that up.

You can literally just Google this. It's not that hard.

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