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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
The Xenopolis Confederation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7394
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:18 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Crysuko wrote:alternatively, you can just go and crump some neo-nazis and not care waht those ivory tower idiots think

I mean, it's pretty fucking terrifying that many "centrists" and "liberals" nowadays have decided that advocating for genocide/ethnic cleansing/segregation is something that deserves to be defended as long as it's done "politely" (though, funny how many of those same "centrists/liberals" tend to be middle class white people who are at zero risk themselves--but I'm sure that's totally a coincidence).

Not defended, just permitted.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0.5
Social: -8
I'm an 18 year old Australian who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

I think I have gender dysphoria so I'd prefer you use she/her pronouns on me. If not, he/him'll do.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24911
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:19 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Crysuko wrote:alternatively, you can just go and crump some neo-nazis and not care waht those ivory tower idiots think

I mean, it's pretty fucking terrifying that many "centrists" and "liberals" nowadays have decided that advocating for genocide/ethnic cleansing/segregation is something that deserves to be defended as long as it's done "politely" (though, funny how many of those same "centrists/liberals" tend to be middle class white people who are at zero risk themselves--but I'm sure that's totally a coincidence).


It is pretty incredibly fucked up, not gonna lie.

We shouldn't have to fucking pander to them to get support against fucking genocide, but that's where we're stuck at. It sucks.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Byzconia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 632
Founded: Nov 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Byzconia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:20 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Crysuko wrote:alternatively, you can just go and crump some neo-nazis and not care waht those ivory tower idiots think


Alter-alternatively, we do need some more allies, so we should try to keep the violence to self-defense and otherwise do shit that's popular with the "I fucking destroyed Trump on Twitter!" crowd of Liberals, like egging and shit.

To my knowledge, we've been pretty fucking defensive, considering that "left-wing extremists" account for about 3% of terrorist attacks in the US, according to the SPLC. The real issue is that we'll always be the aggressors, until we're literally blindfolded on our knees waiting to get shot in the heads. As I mentioned in a previous post, "centrists/moderates" are far more terrified of socialists than fascists, regardless of any actions we take.
For: Liberal socialism, Left-libertarianism, Progressivism, Atheism, Equality, Materialism, Absurdism, Individualism, Palestinians, Kurds

Neutral: EU, Existentialism, Nihilism, non-ML Communism

Against: Neoliberalism, Conservatism, Social Darwinism (Right-"libertarianism," Fascism, Nazism), Monarchism, Marxism-Leninism (and its spin-offs), Nationalism, Imperialism, Racism, Sexism, Xenophobia, Religion, Theism, Idealism, Optimism, Egoism, Incels


Private prisons are modern Gulags. (Forced labor isn't good just because it's not the government doing the forcing.)

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8953
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:21 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Crysuko wrote:alternatively, you can just go and crump some neo-nazis and not care waht those ivory tower idiots think

I mean, it's pretty fucking terrifying that many "centrists" and "liberals" nowadays have decided that advocating for genocide/ethnic cleansing/segregation is something that deserves to be defended as long as it's done "politely" (though, funny how many of those same "centrists/liberals" tend to be middle class white people who are at zero risk themselves--but I'm sure that's totally a coincidence).

fReE mArKeTpLaCe oF iDeAs
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
Filipino|Catholic Liberationist|Leftist|He/Him|Bisexual|Trans Rights
North and East Syria|Taiwan|Hong Kong|Autonomous Cordillera|Zapatistas|Assyria


User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24911
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:21 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Alter-alternatively, we do need some more allies, so we should try to keep the violence to self-defense and otherwise do shit that's popular with the "I fucking destroyed Trump on Twitter!" crowd of Liberals, like egging and shit.

To my knowledge, we've been pretty fucking defensive, considering that "left-wing extremists" account for about 3% of terrorist attacks in the US, according to the SPLC. The real issue is that we'll always be the aggressors, until we're literally blindfolded on our knees waiting to get shot in the heads. As I mentioned in a previous post, "centrists/moderates" are far more terrified of socialists than fascists, regardless of any actions we take.


Yeah, that's entirely true, too. It's a fucking annoyance, tbh, because no matter what we do really, we're always "worse" or "as bad" as literal fucking Nazis.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Byzconia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 632
Founded: Nov 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Byzconia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:21 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Byzconia wrote:I mean, it's pretty fucking terrifying that many "centrists" and "liberals" nowadays have decided that advocating for genocide/ethnic cleansing/segregation is something that deserves to be defended as long as it's done "politely" (though, funny how many of those same "centrists/liberals" tend to be middle class white people who are at zero risk themselves--but I'm sure that's totally a coincidence).

Not defended, just permitted.

Distinction without a difference.
For: Liberal socialism, Left-libertarianism, Progressivism, Atheism, Equality, Materialism, Absurdism, Individualism, Palestinians, Kurds

Neutral: EU, Existentialism, Nihilism, non-ML Communism

Against: Neoliberalism, Conservatism, Social Darwinism (Right-"libertarianism," Fascism, Nazism), Monarchism, Marxism-Leninism (and its spin-offs), Nationalism, Imperialism, Racism, Sexism, Xenophobia, Religion, Theism, Idealism, Optimism, Egoism, Incels


Private prisons are modern Gulags. (Forced labor isn't good just because it's not the government doing the forcing.)

User avatar
Proctopeo
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9499
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:22 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Byzconia wrote:I mean, it's pretty fucking terrifying that many "centrists" and "liberals" nowadays have decided that advocating for genocide/ethnic cleansing/segregation is something that deserves to be defended as long as it's done "politely" (though, funny how many of those same "centrists/liberals" tend to be middle class white people who are at zero risk themselves--but I'm sure that's totally a coincidence).


It is pretty incredibly fucked up, not gonna lie.

We shouldn't have to fucking pander to them to get support against fucking genocide, but that's where we're stuck at. It sucks.

Most people support against genocide (though recognizing something as a genocide can be its own separate battle: the Holodomor, the Armenian Genocide, and the Haitian Revolution's genocide are examples of ones often met with "uhhh no actually it was a mass slaughter, not a genocide, there's a difference sweaty"))
Pushing for censorship is much more uphill a battle, even though unsavory things being said makes it a little easier to swallow.

Byzconia wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Not defended, just permitted.

Distinction without a difference.

There's a very evident difference. You just refuse to see it.
Center-right libertarian LockeabooEconomic: 5.25
Meme addict :^)Social: -3.74
Manga is literatureWill probably retake once every month or so, last updated 3/8/2019
RIP Balk
Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24911
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:24 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It is pretty incredibly fucked up, not gonna lie.

We shouldn't have to fucking pander to them to get support against fucking genocide, but that's where we're stuck at. It sucks.

Most people support against genocide (though recognizing something as a genocide can be its own separate battle: the Holodomor, the Armenian Genocide, and the Haitian Revolution's genocide are examples of ones often met with "uhhh no actually it was a mass slaughter, not a genocide, there's a difference sweaty"))


You can't hear it right now, but I'm screaming in utter anguish.

Pushing for censorship is much more uphill a battle, even though unsavory things being said makes it a little easier to swallow.


TBF it really shouldn't be difficult to be in favor of censoring genocidal bullshittery like Nazism.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Proctopeo
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9499
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:26 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Most people support against genocide (though recognizing something as a genocide can be its own separate battle: the Holodomor, the Armenian Genocide, and the Haitian Revolution's genocide are examples of ones often met with "uhhh no actually it was a mass slaughter, not a genocide, there's a difference sweaty"))


You can't hear it right now, but I'm screaming in utter anguish.

That's why I mentioned it fam. Your past mistakes shall ever haunt you.

Pushing for censorship is much more uphill a battle, even though unsavory things being said makes it a little easier to swallow.


TBF it really shouldn't be difficult to be in favor of censoring genocidal bullshittery like Nazism.

Censorship in general tends to be a hard sell, especially in places that like not being censored, like America. Besides that, censorship is a dangerous road to go down, and not worth the risk. Especially not for any type of "libertarian" where a nebulous entity having the ability to silence others is generally frowned upon.
Center-right libertarian LockeabooEconomic: 5.25
Meme addict :^)Social: -3.74
Manga is literatureWill probably retake once every month or so, last updated 3/8/2019
RIP Balk
Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

User avatar
Byzconia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 632
Founded: Nov 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Byzconia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:26 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Byzconia wrote:To my knowledge, we've been pretty fucking defensive, considering that "left-wing extremists" account for about 3% of terrorist attacks in the US, according to the SPLC. The real issue is that we'll always be the aggressors, until we're literally blindfolded on our knees waiting to get shot in the heads. As I mentioned in a previous post, "centrists/moderates" are far more terrified of socialists than fascists, regardless of any actions we take.


Yeah, that's entirely true, too. It's a fucking annoyance, tbh, because no matter what we do really, we're always "worse" or "as bad" as literal fucking Nazis.

Scapegoating is an effective political tool. Many far-right regimes have justified anti-democratic policies by claiming that it's "necessary" in order to "protect the people from socialism/Communism." Hell, Hitler literally said that his seizure of absolute power was necessary to protect the German people from being enslaved by "Jewish Bolshevism" (nevermind the Nazi government then proceeded to essentially enslave its own populations via its anti-labor policies--and then literally enslaved people). It's basically the entire point of Martin Niemoller's famous poem.
For: Liberal socialism, Left-libertarianism, Progressivism, Atheism, Equality, Materialism, Absurdism, Individualism, Palestinians, Kurds

Neutral: EU, Existentialism, Nihilism, non-ML Communism

Against: Neoliberalism, Conservatism, Social Darwinism (Right-"libertarianism," Fascism, Nazism), Monarchism, Marxism-Leninism (and its spin-offs), Nationalism, Imperialism, Racism, Sexism, Xenophobia, Religion, Theism, Idealism, Optimism, Egoism, Incels


Private prisons are modern Gulags. (Forced labor isn't good just because it's not the government doing the forcing.)

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 4510
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:27 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Byzconia wrote:I mean, it's pretty fucking terrifying that many "centrists" and "liberals" nowadays have decided that advocating for genocide/ethnic cleansing/segregation is something that deserves to be defended as long as it's done "politely" (though, funny how many of those same "centrists/liberals" tend to be middle class white people who are at zero risk themselves--but I'm sure that's totally a coincidence).

Not defended, just permitted.

This ^^
[Insert Signature Here]

User avatar
Byzconia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 632
Founded: Nov 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Byzconia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:29 pm

Byzconia wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Not defended, just permitted.

Distinction without a difference.

There's a very evident difference. You just refuse to see it.[/quote]
"Everyone who disagrees with me just refuses to see the obvious objective reality!"

But I'll bite, what's the "evident difference."
For: Liberal socialism, Left-libertarianism, Progressivism, Atheism, Equality, Materialism, Absurdism, Individualism, Palestinians, Kurds

Neutral: EU, Existentialism, Nihilism, non-ML Communism

Against: Neoliberalism, Conservatism, Social Darwinism (Right-"libertarianism," Fascism, Nazism), Monarchism, Marxism-Leninism (and its spin-offs), Nationalism, Imperialism, Racism, Sexism, Xenophobia, Religion, Theism, Idealism, Optimism, Egoism, Incels


Private prisons are modern Gulags. (Forced labor isn't good just because it's not the government doing the forcing.)

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24911
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:30 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
You can't hear it right now, but I'm screaming in utter anguish.

That's why I mentioned it fam. Your past mistakes shall ever haunt you.


Please stop.


TBF it really shouldn't be difficult to be in favor of censoring genocidal bullshittery like Nazism.

Censorship in general tends to be a hard sell, especially in places that like not being censored, like America. Besides that, censorship is a dangerous road to go down, and not worth the risk. Especially not for any type of "libertarian" where a nebulous entity having the ability to silence others is generally frowned upon.


I'm pretty certain that censoring Nazism is a thing most leftists can comfortably agree on.

Byzconia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Yeah, that's entirely true, too. It's a fucking annoyance, tbh, because no matter what we do really, we're always "worse" or "as bad" as literal fucking Nazis.

Scapegoating is an effective political tool. Many far-right regimes have justified anti-democratic policies by claiming that it's "necessary" in order to "protect the people from socialism/Communism." Hell, Hitler literally said that his seizure of absolute power was necessary to protect the German people from being enslaved by "Jewish Bolshevism" (nevermind the Nazi government then proceeded to essentially enslave its own populations via its anti-labor policies--and then literally enslaved people). It's basically the entire point of Martin Niemoller's famous poem.


Yeah, and it's pretty fucking absurd since allowing that shit to fester unchecked is just gonna create some repetition of the past.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Byzconia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 632
Founded: Nov 01, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Byzconia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:31 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
You can't hear it right now, but I'm screaming in utter anguish.

That's why I mentioned it fam. Your past mistakes shall ever haunt you.


TBF it really shouldn't be difficult to be in favor of censoring genocidal bullshittery like Nazism.

Censorship in general tends to be a hard sell, especially in places that like not being censored, like America. Besides that, censorship is a dangerous road to go down, and not worth the risk. Especially not for any type of "libertarian" where a nebulous entity having the ability to silence others is generally frowned upon.

Given that plenty of Western democracies have implemented hate speech laws and have yet to descend into Stalinist repression, this borders on a slippery slope fallacy.
For: Liberal socialism, Left-libertarianism, Progressivism, Atheism, Equality, Materialism, Absurdism, Individualism, Palestinians, Kurds

Neutral: EU, Existentialism, Nihilism, non-ML Communism

Against: Neoliberalism, Conservatism, Social Darwinism (Right-"libertarianism," Fascism, Nazism), Monarchism, Marxism-Leninism (and its spin-offs), Nationalism, Imperialism, Racism, Sexism, Xenophobia, Religion, Theism, Idealism, Optimism, Egoism, Incels


Private prisons are modern Gulags. (Forced labor isn't good just because it's not the government doing the forcing.)

User avatar
Greater Westralia
Envoy
 
Posts: 227
Founded: Nov 13, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Greater Westralia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:33 pm

If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.
Unapologetic WA Supremacist

We did it once, we'll do it again!

User avatar
Yusseria
Minister
 
Posts: 2342
Founded: Feb 02, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Yusseria » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:34 pm

Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.

Now, now. Mao may have killed 45 million people, but at least he wasn't a Nazi!
Yusseria - The Prussia of NationStates
There is nothing wrong with Islamaphobia

User avatar
LiberNovusAmericae
Senator
 
Posts: 4510
Founded: Mar 10, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:34 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:That's why I mentioned it fam. Your past mistakes shall ever haunt you.


Censorship in general tends to be a hard sell, especially in places that like not being censored, like America. Besides that, censorship is a dangerous road to go down, and not worth the risk. Especially not for any type of "libertarian" where a nebulous entity having the ability to silence others is generally frowned upon.

Given that plenty of Western democracies have implemented hate speech laws and have yet to descend into Stalinist repression, this borders on a slippery slope fallacy.

It doesn't have to so down to Stalinist levels of oppression to be problematic. Under the UK's hate speech laws, YouTuber Count Dankula got arrested over a stupid joke.
[Insert Signature Here]

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24911
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:35 pm

Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.


Supporting violence itself isn't and most definitely shouldn't be censored. Not all violence is created equally, and not all violence is done to further the goals of an authoritarian or a genocidal regime.

I'm not against censoring authoritarianism, though; the paradox of intolerance is a real thing, and I'm okay with it if it ultimately means preserving actual liberty.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Proctopeo
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9499
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:36 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:That's why I mentioned it fam. Your past mistakes shall ever haunt you.


Please stop.

Pa gen okenn.

Censorship in general tends to be a hard sell, especially in places that like not being censored, like America. Besides that, censorship is a dangerous road to go down, and not worth the risk. Especially not for any type of "libertarian" where a nebulous entity having the ability to silence others is generally frowned upon.


I'm pretty certain that censoring Nazism is a thing most leftists can comfortably agree on.

Left-"libertarians" and literal Stalinists make weird bedfellows when it comes to suppressing an ideology.

You'll be happy to hear I don't advocate for the suppression of any leftist ideology, just the development of a stigma against the extreme ones ;)

Byzconia wrote:Given that plenty of Western democracies have implemented hate speech laws and have yet to descend into Stalinist repression, this borders on a slippery slope fallacy.

Cool, but I never mentioned Stalin or Stalinism.
Only that the ability to silence others is generally frowned upon. Doesn't mean Western democracies haven't been idiots, and that it won't bite them in the ass in the future.

Byzconia wrote:"Everyone who disagrees with me just refuses to see the obvious objective reality!"

But I'll bite, what's the "evident difference."

Defending implies a degree of sympathy and support. Permission implies tolerance, which itself doesn't in any way imply sympathy or support. It's that simple.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Byzconia wrote:Given that plenty of Western democracies have implemented hate speech laws and have yet to descend into Stalinist repression, this borders on a slippery slope fallacy.

It doesn't have to so down to Stalinist levels of oppression to be problematic. Under the UK's hate speech laws, YouTuber Count Dankula got arrested over a stupid joke.

He was clearly training that pug to be the next Hitler, you crypto-Nazi! /s
Center-right libertarian LockeabooEconomic: 5.25
Meme addict :^)Social: -3.74
Manga is literatureWill probably retake once every month or so, last updated 3/8/2019
RIP Balk
Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8953
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:37 pm

Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.

Fuck yeah, censor authoritarians.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
Filipino|Catholic Liberationist|Leftist|He/Him|Bisexual|Trans Rights
North and East Syria|Taiwan|Hong Kong|Autonomous Cordillera|Zapatistas|Assyria


User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24911
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I'm pretty certain that censoring Nazism is a thing most leftists can comfortably agree on.

Left-"libertarians" and literal Stalinists make weird bedfellows when it comes to suppressing an ideology.

You'll be happy to hear I don't advocate for the suppression of any leftist ideology, just the development of a stigma against the extreme ones ;)


It's the paradox of intolerance, famalam. There's no problem with suppressing authoritarianism (including Stalinists, of course, since you have an odd fascination with trying to lump us in with them) to preserve liberty.
Last edited by Torrocca on Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Yusseria
Minister
 
Posts: 2342
Founded: Feb 02, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Yusseria » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.

Fuck yeah, censor authoritarians.

God, the irony.
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Greater Westralia
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Postby Greater Westralia » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm

Torrocca wrote:Supporting violence itself isn't and most definitely shouldn't be censored. Not all violence is created equally, and not all violence is done to further the goals of an authoritarian or a genocidal regime.

I'm not against censoring authoritarianism, though; the paradox of intolerance is a real thing, and I'm okay with it if it ultimately means preserving actual liberty.

See, I'm disappointed. I thought you libertarian socialists could be relied to rail against the excesses of revolutionary Marxist-Leninist state, but when the chips fall down all you care about is killing the bourgeoisie.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:38 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Greater Westralia wrote:If we censor Nazis and fascists, we ought to censor Stalinists, Maoists and other dictatorship-apologists.

Their rhetoric is a few steps down from Nazism but supports and enables violence nevertheless.

Fuck yeah, censor authoritarians.

At least you're principled in that regard.
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Proctopeo
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Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:39 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Left-"libertarians" and literal Stalinists make weird bedfellows when it comes to suppressing an ideology.

You'll be happy to hear I don't advocate for the suppression of any leftist ideology, just the development of a stigma against the extreme ones ;)


It's the paradox of intolerance, famalam. There's no problem with suppressing authoritarianism to preserve liberty.

I mean, sure, but if I went with that line of thinking I'd have to suppress you too.
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