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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20844
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:07 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
All roads threads lead to Rome.

R O M A I N V I C T A


Rome distributed free grain to its citizens, how wholesome.


People tend to forget the panem part of panem et circenses.

Free bread is Commie bullshit, gladiator is manly right-wing awesomeness!!!!11!!1one!1eleven!
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

How not to debate: put snarky things implicitly calling out other posters in your sig

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Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:11 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Rome distributed free grain to its citizens, how wholesome.


People tend to forget the panem part of panem et circenses.

Free bread is Commie bullshit, gladiator is manly right-wing awesomeness!!!!11!!1one!1eleven!


Panem et circenses is unironically how I believe society functions.

If the populace is kept happy, they will not rebel, simple as that!

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23966
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:15 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Rome distributed free grain to its citizens, how wholesome.


People tend to forget the panem part of panem et circenses.

Free bread is Commie bullshit, gladiator is manly right-wing awesomeness!!!!11!!1one!1eleven!


Today I learned that Rome was founded by time-traveler Peter Kropotkin.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

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Democratic Communist Federation
Senator
 
Posts: 3719
Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:36 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:Lol what a load of horseshit.

Science is using the scientific method, most academics don't do that, and you know it.


That is based on positivism, a dying philosophy of science. There is no such thing as the scientific method. Each field has its own scientific methods.

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Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20844
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:38 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Lol what a load of horseshit.

Science is using the scientific method, most academics don't do that, and you know it.


That is based on positivism, a dying philosophy of science. There is no such thing as the scientific method. Each field has its own scientific methods.


I agree with that sentiment but I don't think it's as widespread or prevalent as you're presenting.
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

How not to debate: put snarky things implicitly calling out other posters in your sig

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Proctopeo
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9013
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:41 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Lol what a load of horseshit.

Science is using the scientific method, most academics don't do that, and you know it.


That is based on positivism, a dying philosophy of science. There is no such thing as the scientific method. Each field has its own scientific methods.

[citation needed]
Are you gonna say next that empiricism is dying too?

Valrifell wrote:
Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
That is based on positivism, a dying philosophy of science. There is no such thing as the scientific method. Each field has its own scientific methods.


I agree with that sentiment but I don't think it's as widespread or prevalent as you're presenting.

As a very basic structure I'm pretty sure you can find the scientific method as the framework of any field-unique scientific method. It's relatively basic, and it's not like you can analyse data before you acquire it.
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 50707
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:47 pm

Many fields have theoretical frameworks which do not utilize the scientific method alongside ones which do. The fact they don't use it is considered a criticism of those frameworks, even if they measurably have results.

EG; Freud.

Psychodynamic therapy has high success rates, which can be empirically confirmed. But the theory is unscientific. Another is, for instance, Erikson development "theory" in social work, which is useful to understand and has its uses even if its not scientific.

I like to think of these kind of discrepancies as akin to Pre-Euclidian mysticism about the round nature of the earth.

"The earth is round."
"Why?"
"Because obviously that's a more pleasing shape for the earth to be, more perfect, more holistic. So that's what the universe made it, because the universe is alive and likes to be pretty. Here, Our theory is supported by us noting that there are lots of pretty things around, supporting our model.".

Non-scientific theories in academia always remind me of that kind of logic.
It's like, no, it's just there's unknown unknowns we haven't found out about yet and you're coming up with a bunch of bollocks rather than acknowledge it.

Freudian psychology is bunk. It's guesswork and not scientific.
But it produces results for reasons we don't yet understand.

In the round earth example, that'd be the natue of gravity and how it produces sphere shapes for large bodies of mass. Once we understood that, we understood why the earth was round, and understood that the "Because sentient pretty universe" wasn't a proper explanation. For freud, who knows.


Humanistic psychology is a good one to consider here.
Just because Rogers couldn't scientifically prove his ideas, doesn't mean they don't have merit and aren't useful, but that also doesn't mean his ideas will never be scientifically proven, especially as our biomedical understanding of neuropsychology expands. And crucially, what he WAS able to do is scientifically prove;
"My ideas do produce results, even if I can't prove its for the reasons I say they do.".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_known_knowns

I.E
"Julius Caesar didn't know that he didn't know anything about nuclear physics.", but show him a radioactive substance and its impact on others, and he'll quickly come up with a model to rationalize what he is seeing, even if its based on a bunch of unscientific nonsense.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:02 pm, edited 9 times in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

User avatar
Yusseria
Minister
 
Posts: 2342
Founded: Feb 02, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Yusseria » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:33 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Rome distributed free grain to its citizens, how wholesome.


Do you want the right-wingers to call Rome a Cultural Marxist SJW hellhole? Because this is how you get the right-wingers to call Rome a Cultural Marxist SJW hellhole.

>free stuff is a left-wing thing

Why do you insist on promoting stereotypes about yourself?
Yusseria - The Prussia of NationStates
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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23966
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:37 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Do you want the right-wingers to call Rome a Cultural Marxist SJW hellhole? Because this is how you get the right-wingers to call Rome a Cultural Marxist SJW hellhole.

>free stuff is a left-wing thing

Why do you insist on promoting stereotypes about yourself?


>literally everyone is 100% serious 100% of the time with everything they say ever
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:38 pm

Yusseria wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Do you want the right-wingers to call Rome a Cultural Marxist SJW hellhole? Because this is how you get the right-wingers to call Rome a Cultural Marxist SJW hellhole.

>free stuff is a left-wing thing

Why do you insist on promoting stereotypes about yourself?


Apparently charity and food distribution are leftist concepts now despite existing for far longer than the notions of leftism and rightism has.

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23966
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:40 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Yusseria wrote:>free stuff is a left-wing thing

Why do you insist on promoting stereotypes about yourself?


Apparently charity and food distribution are leftist concepts now despite existing for far longer than the notions of leftism and rightism has.


">literally everyone is 100% serious 100% of the time with everything they say ever"

Can't even make a joke about how rightists would call that communism smh my head
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
The Galactic Liberal Democracy
Minister
 
Posts: 2275
Founded: Jun 13, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby The Galactic Liberal Democracy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:41 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Panem et circenses is unironically how I believe society functions.

If the populace is kept happy, they will not rebel, simple as that!

If you paralyze or otherwise cripple everyone, they will not rebel, as simple as that.
NOT STORMTROOPERS
Cossack Khanate wrote:This shall forever be known as World War Sh*t: Newark Aggression. Now if I see one more troop deployed, I will call on the force of all the Hindu gods to reverse time and wipe your race of the face of the planet. Cease.

The Black Party wrote:(TBP kamikaze's into all 99999999999 nukes before they hit our territory because we just have that many pilots ready to die for dah blak regime, we also counter-attack into your nation with our entire population of 45 million because this RP allows it.)

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Galatic Liberal Democracy short-circuits all of NS with FACTS and LOGIC

User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20844
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:42 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Yusseria wrote:>free stuff is a left-wing thing

Why do you insist on promoting stereotypes about yourself?


Apparently charity and food distribution are leftist concepts now despite existing for far longer than the notions of leftism and rightism has.


The class struggle is eternal, comrade.
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

How not to debate: put snarky things implicitly calling out other posters in your sig

User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20844
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:42 pm

The Galactic Liberal Democracy wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Panem et circenses is unironically how I believe society functions.

If the populace is kept happy, they will not rebel, simple as that!

If you paralyze or otherwise cripple everyone, they will not rebel, as simple as that.


Which is why I've decided to ban spines.
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

How not to debate: put snarky things implicitly calling out other posters in your sig

User avatar
Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:43 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Apparently charity and food distribution are leftist concepts now despite existing for far longer than the notions of leftism and rightism has.


">literally everyone is 100% serious 100% of the time with everything they say ever"

Can't even make a joke about how rightists would call that communism smh my head


It is hard to distinguish whether you are being ironic or serious a lot of the time.

The Galactic Liberal Democracy wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Panem et circenses is unironically how I believe society functions.

If the populace is kept happy, they will not rebel, simple as that!

If you paralyze or otherwise cripple everyone, they will not rebel, as simple as that.


Except if you break their legs, they will not only be unable to work, but they’d get pissed.

Not ideal, really.

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The Grene Knyght
Minister
 
Posts: 2948
Founded: May 07, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Grene Knyght » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:44 pm

I'm late to this conversation, but I'd just like to say that anyone who produces a generalised, surface level, one-sentence analysis of complex historical events centuries or millennia ago, and uses this to demonstrate something about the modern world or make a point about the validity of their political views is, in my experience, generally wrong.
     
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ANTI: Capitalism, Liberalism, nationalism, left-sectarianism.
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Socialist Women wrote:Part of the reason you're an anarchist is because you ate too much expired food.
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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23966
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:44 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
">literally everyone is 100% serious 100% of the time with everything they say ever"

Can't even make a joke about how rightists would call that communism smh my head


It is hard to distinguish whether you are being ironic or serious a lot of the time.


The /s tag is for the lily-livered.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
You probably have my idea of Communism wrong.
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3

User avatar
The Galactic Liberal Democracy
Minister
 
Posts: 2275
Founded: Jun 13, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby The Galactic Liberal Democracy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:45 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Which is why I've decided to ban spines.

Scientists have signed a petition to ban water, everyone intelligent knows that society would be better off with drastic and violent actions that speed up the downfall of mankind.
NOT STORMTROOPERS
Cossack Khanate wrote:This shall forever be known as World War Sh*t: Newark Aggression. Now if I see one more troop deployed, I will call on the force of all the Hindu gods to reverse time and wipe your race of the face of the planet. Cease.

The Black Party wrote:(TBP kamikaze's into all 99999999999 nukes before they hit our territory because we just have that many pilots ready to die for dah blak regime, we also counter-attack into your nation with our entire population of 45 million because this RP allows it.)

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Galatic Liberal Democracy short-circuits all of NS with FACTS and LOGIC

User avatar
The New California Republic
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15115
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:45 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
The Galactic Liberal Democracy wrote:If you paralyze or otherwise cripple everyone, they will not rebel, as simple as that.


Except if you break their legs, they will not only be unable to work, but they’d get pissed.

The use of one's legs isn't really required for quite a lot of jobs though.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
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User avatar
The Galactic Liberal Democracy
Minister
 
Posts: 2275
Founded: Jun 13, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby The Galactic Liberal Democracy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:46 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Except if you break their legs, they will not only be unable to work, but they’d get pissed.

Not ideal, really.

One word: aliens/robots.
NOT STORMTROOPERS
Cossack Khanate wrote:This shall forever be known as World War Sh*t: Newark Aggression. Now if I see one more troop deployed, I will call on the force of all the Hindu gods to reverse time and wipe your race of the face of the planet. Cease.

The Black Party wrote:(TBP kamikaze's into all 99999999999 nukes before they hit our territory because we just have that many pilots ready to die for dah blak regime, we also counter-attack into your nation with our entire population of 45 million because this RP allows it.)

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Galatic Liberal Democracy short-circuits all of NS with FACTS and LOGIC

User avatar
Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:46 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
It is hard to distinguish whether you are being ironic or serious a lot of the time.


The /s tag is for the lily-livered.


There’s no /s on NSG, we all have Freudian slips.

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Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8752
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:46 pm

The Galactic Liberal Democracy wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
Which is why I've decided to ban spines.

Scientists have signed a petition to ban water, everyone intelligent knows that society would be better off with drastic and violent actions that speed up the downfall of mankind.

AnPrims want to know your location.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
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User avatar
The Galactic Liberal Democracy
Minister
 
Posts: 2275
Founded: Jun 13, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby The Galactic Liberal Democracy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:49 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:AnPrims want to know your location.

>indirectly expressing your assumption that I possess a location from which I am typing
NOT STORMTROOPERS
Cossack Khanate wrote:This shall forever be known as World War Sh*t: Newark Aggression. Now if I see one more troop deployed, I will call on the force of all the Hindu gods to reverse time and wipe your race of the face of the planet. Cease.

The Black Party wrote:(TBP kamikaze's into all 99999999999 nukes before they hit our territory because we just have that many pilots ready to die for dah blak regime, we also counter-attack into your nation with our entire population of 45 million because this RP allows it.)

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Galatic Liberal Democracy short-circuits all of NS with FACTS and LOGIC

User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20844
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:50 pm

The Galactic Liberal Democracy wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:AnPrims want to know your location.

>indirectly expressing your assumption that I possess a location from which I am typing


O-oh?
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

How not to debate: put snarky things implicitly calling out other posters in your sig

User avatar
Democratic Communist Federation
Senator
 
Posts: 3719
Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:58 pm

Valrifell wrote:I agree with that sentiment but I don't think it's as widespread or prevalent as you're presenting.


You don't think that what is that widespread or prevalent? That positivism is dying? Factually, that is true.

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