LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Conserative Morality]

Odoacer didn't tbh, the Ostrogoths on the other hand...

Visigoths worst Goths, change my mind (protip: you can't)

[United Muscovite Nations]

There is also, of course, the issue that the borders were often quite strongly protected, to the detriment of the economic viability of the Empire, and that the refusal of the Roman elite to accept outsiders such as Stilicho as time wore on stripped them of one of Rome's former strengths - the ability to turn their enemies and subjects to their side.

No, CM, see, Rome collapsed because of mass immigration in spite of the fact the Empire had been successfully assimilating migrating and conquered people for the better half of 500 years.

Whether for good or bad, people often look at history and only see in it the moral crises of their time.

[Conserative Morality]

Lmao, that meme is fantastic.

But yeah, we gotta be careful in how we try to use history for our political uses. The histories I've read seem to say that the Romans were as much of the problem as any barbarian group.

Aye, the fall of the Western Empire was like a laundry list of shitty decisions and bad circumstances. Some straight-up Murphy's Law level stuff.

[Hanafuridake]

Got to laugh when family bring up politics but eventually end up resorting to endlessly repeating the words "loony left" in lieu of an argument.

Still, got my own back when dad randomly claimed Rome fell due to lead poisoning and I did the whole "well actually it fell due to people refusing to pay taxes and due to mass migration without integration, ring any bells for what's happening under liberal individualism?"

All good fun.

Not sure whether this is a better or worse take than the people who blame Christianity.

[Conserative Morality]

Not sure whether this is a better or worse take than the people who blame Christianity.

Okay but the Chi-Rho is objectively uninspiring.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Got to laugh when family bring up politics but eventually end up resorting to endlessly repeating the words "loony left" in lieu of an argument.

Still, got my own back when dad randomly claimed Rome fell due to lead poisoning and I did the whole "well actually it fell due to people refusing to pay taxes and due to mass migration without integration, ring any bells for what's happening under liberal individualism?"

All good fun.

Not sure whether this is a better or worse take than the people who blame Christianity.

Rome fell cuz of Christianity AND immigration :^]

Odoacer didn't tbh, the Ostrogoths on the other hand...

Visigoths worst Goths, change my mind (protip: you can't)

Idk man. At least under Odoacer Italy seems to have been decent enough, but the Ostrogoths ruined everything when they came along and then it got even worse when they fought the ERE.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The Western Empire had been struggling for a while under the weight of its armies (as had the entire Empire tbh), however, imo long-term causes are overstated, the period which I would actually call the fall of the Western Empire probably takes place within 80 years, and it was probably only unavoidable for 50 of those.

[Conserative Morality]

Idk man. At least under Odoacer Italy seems to have been decent enough, but the Ostrogoths ruined everything when they came along and then it got even worse when they fought the ERE.

Visigoths literally got BTFO by a bunch of desert nomads. Literally as bad as the Greeks, but without the excuse of it coming on the heels of a generation-long war.

AFRICA IS EUROPEAN CLAY

ME"NA" IS A SARACEN CONSPIRACY

[Hanafuridake]

Not sure whether this is a better or worse take than the people who blame Christianity.

Okay but the Chi-Rho is objectively uninspiring.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Idk man. At least under Odoacer Italy seems to have been decent enough, but the Ostrogoths ruined everything when they came along and then it got even worse when they fought the ERE.

Visigoths literally got BTFO by a bunch of desert nomads. Literally as bad as the Greeks, but without the excuse of it coming on the heels of a generation-long war.

AFRICA IS EUROPEAN CLAY

ME"NA" IS A SARACEN CONSPIRACY

>tfw the "Khalid ibn al Whalid had to have been allowed to win by God" is actually pretty convincing when you look at the numbers

[Conserative Morality]

The Western Empire had been struggling for a while under the weight of its armies (as had the entire Empire tbh), however, imo long-term causes are overstated, the period which I would actually call the fall of the Western Empire probably takes place within 80 years, and it was probably only unavoidable for 50 of those.

I think it could have been held off for a bit longer, but after Diocletian's reforms (themselves, admittedly, responses to trying circumstances) were not immediately reversed, the gears were in motion - Rome would never be able to maintain the system that allowed it to become so powerful, and its power was all that kept its vast territories intact. If the Western Empire had been able to survive, past that point, it wouldn't have been as it was in the 3rd and 4th centuries. The turning point for the effective collapse of the empire, if not necessarily the Roman state.

It reminds me of the fall of the Mongol Empire - when the Mongols stopped adhering to their own systems laid down by the Great Khan which made their polity so powerful, foolishly thinking, in the words of Khublai, that an empire conquered on horseback cannot be ruled from horseback, they began to crumble. Even if they remained preeminent for a few generations more, the old deel was cast aside, and the new was unbroken, untried, and unready for the realities of rule.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The Western Empire had been struggling for a while under the weight of its armies (as had the entire Empire tbh), however, imo long-term causes are overstated, the period which I would actually call the fall of the Western Empire probably takes place within 80 years, and it was probably only unavoidable for 50 of those.

I think it could have been held off for a bit longer, but after Diocletian's reforms (themselves, admittedly, responses to trying circumstances) were not immediately reversed, the gears were in motion - Rome would never be able to maintain the system that allowed it to become so powerful, and its power was all that kept its vast territories intact. If the Western Empire had been able to survive, past that point, it wouldn't have been as it was in the 3rd and 4th centuries. The turning point for the effective collapse of the empire, if not necessarily the Roman state.

It reminds me of the fall of the Mongol Empire - when the Mongols stopped adhering to their own systems laid down by the Great Khan which made their polity so powerful, foolishly thinking, in the words of Khublai, that an empire conquered on horseback cannot be ruled from horseback, they began to crumble. Even if they remained preeminent for a few generations more, the old deel was cast aside, and the new was unbroken, untried, and unready for the realities of rule.

This is where I disagree. The old systems worked for a time in which the Romans were vastly more powerful than all of their neighbors, they didn't work for neighbors that were their peers, as proven by the defeats suffered by the legions in the East.

[Conserative Morality]

This is where I disagree. The old systems worked for a time in which the Romans were vastly more powerful than all of their neighbors, they didn't work for neighbors that were their peers, as proven by the defeats suffered by the legions in the East.

The defeats suffered by the legions in the east were overwhelmingly, at the height of Roman power, not due to the strength of their enemies, but because of a lack of political will to produce the blood and coin necessary to fight a serious war and, to a lesser degree, the mismatch of Roman tactics with the terrain. The question wasn't "Can we take on the Persians?", it was "Is it worth taking on the Persians?" I mean, they were sacking Ctesiphon like it was going out of style for some 200 years. I don't think the issue was a lack of imbalance of power.

[Valrifell]

Why are the ideological discussion threads so prone to turning into conversations about the Roman Empire? Is it just a fact that all conversations will naturally drift to Rome?

[United Muscovite Nations]

This is where I disagree. The old systems worked for a time in which the Romans were vastly more powerful than all of their neighbors, they didn't work for neighbors that were their peers, as proven by the defeats suffered by the legions in the East.

The defeats suffered by the legions in the east were overwhelmingly, at the height of Roman power, not due to the strength of their enemies, but because of a lack of political will to produce the blood and coin necessary to fight a serious war and, to a lesser degree, the mismatch of Roman tactics with the terrain. The question wasn't "Can we take on the Persians?", it was "Is it worth taking on the Persians?" I mean, they were sacking Ctesiphon like it was going out of style for some 200 years. I don't think the issue was a lack of imbalance of power.

At the time of the sacks of Ctesiphon, Persia was under the control of the crumbling Parthians, once the more militaristic Sassanians took power, it was a different ballgame, and the latter were able to take on the Romans on equal terms.

[Yusseria]

The Germanic tribes were an essential part of the Roman military and did nothing wrong. They assimilated perfectly.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Why are the ideological discussion threads so prone to turning into conversations about the Roman Empire? Is it just a fact that all conversations will naturally drift to Rome?

Because most of us are from Western countries and Rome is the origin of the West, hell, it's even the origin of some non-Western ideas.

[Conserative Morality]

Why are the ideological discussion threads so prone to turning into conversations about the Roman Empire? Is it just a fact that all conversations will naturally drift to Rome?

ROME! IS CIVILIZATION

ROME! IS ORDER!

ROME! IS POWER!

Rome is the foundation of the West. Any sufficiently broad discussion regarding the West will inevitably loop back to Rome at some point. Caesar's Law.

[Torrocca]

Why are the ideological discussion threads so prone to turning into conversations about the Roman Empire? Is it just a fact that all conversations will naturally drift to Rome?

All roads threads lead to Rome.

R O M A I N V I C T A

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Why are the ideological discussion threads so prone to turning into conversations about the Roman Empire? Is it just a fact that all conversations will naturally drift to Rome?

All roads threads lead to Rome.

R O M A I N V I C T A

Rome distributed free grain to its citizens, how wholesome.

[Torrocca]

All roads threads lead to Rome.

R O M A I N V I C T A

Rome distributed free grain to its citizens, how wholesome.

Do you want the right-wingers to call Rome a Cultural Marxist SJW hellhole? Because this is how you get the right-wingers to call Rome a Cultural Marxist SJW hellhole.

[Valrifell]

All roads threads lead to Rome.

R O M A I N V I C T A

Rome distributed free grain to its citizens, how wholesome.

People tend to forget the panem part of panem et circenses.

Free bread is Commie bullshit, gladiator is manly right-wing awesomeness!!!!11!!1one!1eleven!

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Rome distributed free grain to its citizens, how wholesome.

People tend to forget the panem part of panem et circenses.

Free bread is Commie bullshit, gladiator is manly right-wing awesomeness!!!!11!!1one!1eleven!

Panem et circenses is unironically how I believe society functions.

If the populace is kept happy, they will not rebel, simple as that!

[Torrocca]

Rome distributed free grain to its citizens, how wholesome.

People tend to forget the panem part of panem et circenses.

Free bread is Commie bullshit, gladiator is manly right-wing awesomeness!!!!11!!1one!1eleven!

Today I learned that Rome was founded by time-traveler Peter Kropotkin.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Lol what a load of horseshit.

Science is using the scientific method, most academics don't do that, and you know it.

That is based on positivism, a dying philosophy of science. There is no such thing as the scientific method. Each field has its own scientific methods.