LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Hanafuridake]

But is he wrong, tho? :^)

As much as I can sympathize with Ben Shapiro’s famous "facts don’t care about your feelings" doctrine...

He very much is wrong.

Awfully convenient that the facts always seem to align with the person who's saying that's feelings.

It's such a ridiculous and hypocritical statement, considering Ben Shapiro's beliefs are as driven by emotion as everyone else's.

not much to sympathize with. Facts and logic are talismans to Shapiro, rather than concepts. He makes little use of either.

To him and his ilk, rationality is an innate quality rather than something easily learned. To them, it seems, you either have rationality and are always right and good or you have irrationality and are always bad and wrong.

Given their almost supernatural reverence for reason, you would think that they would at least convert to Platonism or Neo-Confucianism and assert that reason is some sort of metaphysical entity which governs the world ala Anaxagoras or Zhu Xi. If you're going to have that amount of naive belief in something, might as well make it interesting. I would watch a PragerU video about how Yang Wangming did nothing wrong or how Plato was right all along.

[Aellex]

Awfully convenient that the facts always seem to align with the person who's saying that's feelings.

It's such a ridiculous and hypocritical statement, considering Ben Shapiro's beliefs are as driven by emotion as everyone else's.

It's a sin both sides are guilty of, sadly. Tho rather than facts and logic like the right, the left tends to go for facts and science with as little of both as them.

Given their almost supernatural reverence for reason, you would think that they would at least convert to Platonism or Neo-Confucianism and assert that reason is some sort of metaphysical entity which governs the world ala Anaxagoras or Zhu Xi. If you're going to have that amount of naive belief in something, might as well make it interesting. I would watch a PragerU video about how Yang Wangming did nothing wrong or how Plato was right all along.

Daily reminder Marc Aurèle was a scrub and that it's his mixing of stoicism with Neo-Platonism that corrupted both.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

As much as I can sympathize with Ben Shapiro’s famous "facts don’t care about your feelings" doctrine...

He very much is wrong.

Awfully convenient that the facts always seem to align with the person who's saying that's feelings.

It's such a ridiculous and hypocritical statement, considering Ben Shapiro's beliefs are as driven by emotion as everyone else's.

To him and his ilk, rationality is an innate quality rather than something easily learned. To them, it seems, you either have rationality and are always right and good or you have irrationality and are always bad and wrong.

Given their almost supernatural reverence for reason, you would think that they would at least convert to Platonism or Neo-Confucianism and assert that reason is some sort of metaphysical entity which governs the world ala Anaxagoras or Zhu Xi. If you're going to have that amount of naive belief in something, might as well make it interesting. I would watch a PragerU video about how Yang Wangming did nothing wrong or how Plato was right all along.

My personal experiences has led me to believe in an almost terrifyingly emotionless form of pragmatism.

[Ostroeuropa]

If you need further evidence of Shapiro being a hack rather than just obstinant and insular, check his response to circumcision debates and how he immediately flies off the handle and rants about anti-semitism, appeals to institutionalized authority, and so on, and consider how he'd act if that was done on any other topic.

Facts don't care about your feelings, Ben.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Awfully convenient that the facts always seem to align with the person who's saying that's feelings.

It's such a ridiculous and hypocritical statement, considering Ben Shapiro's beliefs are as driven by emotion as everyone else's.

Given their almost supernatural reverence for reason, you would think that they would at least convert to Platonism or Neo-Confucianism and assert that reason is some sort of metaphysical entity which governs the world ala Anaxagoras or Zhu Xi. If you're going to have that amount of naive belief in something, might as well make it interesting. I would watch a PragerU video about how Yang Wangming did nothing wrong or how Plato was right all along.

My personal experiences has led me to believe in an almost terrifyingly emotionless form of pragmatism.

In the sense of "the ends justify the means" or in the sense of "only power matters, I don't *have* any principles"?

[Cekoviu]

As much as I can sympathize with Ben Shapiro’s famous "facts don’t care about your feelings" doctrine...

He very much is wrong.

not much to sympathize with. Facts and logic are talismans to Shapiro, rather than concepts. He makes little use of either.

His entire shtick is using gibberish that sounds like logic and hoping people will believe that it actually is. No actual logic here.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

My personal experiences has led me to believe in an almost terrifyingly emotionless form of pragmatism.

In the sense of "the ends justify the means" or in the sense of "only power matters, I don't *have* any principles"?

The end justifies the means (I still have morals and emotions, I just have struggled to express them throughout my whole life, and this has kinda made me known by people who know it as somebody unusually calm and open to negotiation).

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Economics is built to work and exist in the framework of the Capitalist ideology. It is not surprising nor stupid for a far left-winger to decry the field altogether.

Left-wing economists, and others who question standard economic theory, fall under the rubric of heterodox economics.

[Duvniask]

It is built to work in the frame of reality, not of ideology.

It's study is very closely linked with the rise of industrial Capitalism and many early economists just so happened to be supporters of the Enlightenment which strongly advocated for the end to the Mercantile system and freer trade.

Of course, in the society anarchists want to implement, there would be nothing for the economist to study. Economics to the anarchist is irrelevant, since the existence of that field necessarily implies the kind of wealth imbalance that they've been seeking to abolish.

For there to be nothing for an economist to study in a social anarchist system, there would have to be no economy TO study.

And, you know, there wouldn't really be an economy.

If everyone's of equal standing and class really doesn't exist, it's hard to have anything that resembles an economy in the traditional sense. No capital, no management of labor, and no real terms to define wealth. Therefore, the economist and their complaints mean nothing to the anarchist, because the anarchist's ideal doesn't involve the economist.

Both these posts are nonsense and put anti-capitalism in a bad light. Economics is the study of the allocation of scarce resources or, we may also say, the study of production, distribution and consumption of goods and services. The economy itself we may express as the system of production, distribution and consumption of a community. The field of economics has a place in any society that is not a post-scarcity wonderland, because any functioning society with scarcity requires a system for the allocation of resources; a system that can be studied, understood and, hopefully, optimized, so as to best serve the most people in the most efficient way, etc.

[Byzconia]

Also, hey, I know it's a total meme ideology but does anyone have any suggested reading on syndicalism? I know the basic details but I've never read too deeply into it and would like to change that.

I’d certainly love to acquire the appropriate books on syndicalism and its variants, but from the relatively extensive knowledge from both memey (i.e. Kaiserreich) and non-memey sources I could acquire...

It just seems like a bureaucratic byzantine nightmare waiting to happen, but I could be wrong.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that? My understanding of syndicalism (which could be wrong) is that it's supposed to be decentralized and democratic. I could see this being said about DeLeonism, based on its more federalistic nature, but standard syndicalism just makes me think of a socialist version of Switzerland.

[Byzconia]

If you need further evidence of Shapiro being a hack rather than just obstinant and insular, check his response to circumcision debates and how he immediately flies off the handle and rants about anti-semitism, appeals to institutionalized authority, and so on, and consider how he'd act if that was done on any other topic.

Facts don't care about your feelings, Ben.

I know a lot of people, personally, who like Ben Shapiro and it's absolutely infuriating. They think he's a profound intellectual, but that's only because they literally know nothing about politics. Any attempt to explain to them that he's a hack is met with, "You're just saying that because you disagree with him!"

Nevermind the fact I have an actual fucking PoliSci degree and know what I'm talking about (and am, generally, a rational person who doesn't resort to insults when disagreeing with someone--and they know that, which makes it even more infuriating that they pull that shit). /minirant

[Ostroeuropa]

I’d certainly love to acquire the appropriate books on syndicalism and its variants, but from the relatively extensive knowledge from both memey (i.e. Kaiserreich) and non-memey sources I could acquire...

It just seems like a bureaucratic byzantine nightmare waiting to happen, but I could be wrong.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that? My understanding of syndicalism (which could be wrong) is that it's supposed to be decentralized and democratic. I could see this being said about DeLeonism, based on its more federalistic nature, but standard syndicalism just makes me think of a socialist version of Switzerland.

All the Kaiserreich syndicalist states deal with their Trade Union Congresses having alternative factions ranging from anarchists to totalitarians.

So it's like a socialist Switzerland if 1/3rd of the people voting were inexplicably Stalinist, and 1/3rd were convinced any form of organization or hierarchy was just as bad as capitalism. This is best shown in the UK, where the "Federationists" are syndicalists trying to strike a balance between Mosley and his ultimate meme ideology designed to troll socialists which includes such masterpiece legislation as "Centralizing the art" (As in, gathering all the art in the country to a single place so it can be maximally effective art for people to look at), and the people who think Scotland should be a thing.


The byzantine trainwreck syndicalism causes in Kaisserreich is a direct result of Syndicalism in Kaisserreich having to compromise with lunatics to form a majority.

The UK anarchist faction wants to abolish the trade union congress because it's evil and not anarchist for some reason.


So socialist switzlerand with 1/3rd socialist swiss, 1/3rd who want to abolish absolutely every form of government and socialism and return to just purest anarchy, and 1/3rd who want to be ironic tankies taking it way too far for the lulz. Mosley appoints himself to several cabinet positions at once, because centralization, for example.


All syndicalist countries in Kaiserreich are federalist to some extent.

[Byzconia]

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that? My understanding of syndicalism (which could be wrong) is that it's supposed to be decentralized and democratic. I could see this being said about DeLeonism, based on its more federalistic nature, but standard syndicalism just makes me think of a socialist version of Switzerland.

All the Kaiserreich syndicalist states deal with their Trade Union Congresses having alternative factions ranging from anarchists to totalitarians.

So it's like a socialist Switzerland if 1/3rd of the people voting were inexplicably Stalinist, and 1/3rd were convinced any form of organization or hierarchy was just as bad as capitalism. This is best shown in the UK, where the "Federationists" are syndicalists trying to strike a balance between Mosley and his ultimate meme ideology designed to troll socialists which includes such masterpiece legislation as "Centralizing the art" (As in, gathering all the art in the country to a single place so it can be maximally effective art for people to look at), and the people who think Scotland should be a thing.


The byzantine trainwreck syndicalism causes in Kaisserreich is a direct result of Syndicalism in Kaisserreich having to compromise with lunatics to form a majority.

The UK anarchist faction wants to abolish the trade union congress because it's evil and not anarchist for some reason.


So socialist switzlerand with 1/3rd socialist swiss, 1/3rd who want to abolish absolutely every form of government and socialism and return to just purest anarchy, and 1/3rd who want to be ironic tankies taking it way too far for the lulz. Mosley appoints himself to several cabinet positions at once, because centralization, for example.


All syndicalist countries in Kaiserreich are federalist to some extent.

Fwiw I'm not sure Hearts of Iron is the most accurate predictor of what syndicalism might look like IRL.

If that's the example we're going to use, though, it doesn't sound much worse than a modern democratic state.

[Ostroeuropa]

All the Kaiserreich syndicalist states deal with their Trade Union Congresses having alternative factions ranging from anarchists to totalitarians.

So it's like a socialist Switzerland if 1/3rd of the people voting were inexplicably Stalinist, and 1/3rd were convinced any form of organization or hierarchy was just as bad as capitalism. This is best shown in the UK, where the "Federationists" are syndicalists trying to strike a balance between Mosley and his ultimate meme ideology designed to troll socialists which includes such masterpiece legislation as "Centralizing the art" (As in, gathering all the art in the country to a single place so it can be maximally effective art for people to look at), and the people who think Scotland should be a thing.


The byzantine trainwreck syndicalism causes in Kaisserreich is a direct result of Syndicalism in Kaisserreich having to compromise with lunatics to form a majority.

The UK anarchist faction wants to abolish the trade union congress because it's evil and not anarchist for some reason.


So socialist switzlerand with 1/3rd socialist swiss, 1/3rd who want to abolish absolutely every form of government and socialism and return to just purest anarchy, and 1/3rd who want to be ironic tankies taking it way too far for the lulz. Mosley appoints himself to several cabinet positions at once, because centralization, for example.


All syndicalist countries in Kaiserreich are federalist to some extent.

Fwiw I'm not sure Hearts of Iron is the most accurate predictor of what syndicalism might look like IRL.

If that's the example we're going to use, though, it doesn't sound much worse than a modern democratic state.

It's ridiculous but that mod probably boosted syndicalisms profile more than a lot of things have through pure memery.

[Byzconia]

Fwiw I'm not sure Hearts of Iron is the most accurate predictor of what syndicalism might look like IRL.

If that's the example we're going to use, though, it doesn't sound much worse than a modern democratic state.

It's ridiculous but that mod probably boosted syndicalisms profile more than a lot of things have through pure memery.

No doubt. It was the first place I'd heard of it and I'd already been a socialist for a few years by that point lol. Kasierreich's history is pretty fantastic. I've always thought syndicalism was very interesting, but at this point in time it's probably better left dead and buried. It was a product of its time.

[Torrocca]

It's ridiculous but that mod probably boosted syndicalisms profile more than a lot of things have through pure memery.

No doubt. It was the first place I'd heard of it and I'd already been a socialist for a few years by that point lol. Kasierreich's history is pretty fantastic. I've always thought syndicalism was very interesting, but at this point in time it's probably better left dead and buried. It was a product of its time.

>TFW you actually knew what Syndicalism was before the KR memes even existed

th-thanks revolutionary catalonia-chan, nyaa~~

[The Grene Knyght]

Fwiw I'm not sure Hearts of Iron is the most accurate predictor of what syndicalism might look like IRL.

If that's the example we're going to use, though, it doesn't sound much worse than a modern democratic state.

It's ridiculous but that mod probably boosted syndicalisms profile more than a lot of things have through pure memery.

It definitely seemed to me that there was a huge uptick in the number of people identifying as syndicalist online after that mod came out. Maybe thats just a dose of Baader-Meinhof though.

[Byzconia]

No doubt. It was the first place I'd heard of it and I'd already been a socialist for a few years by that point lol. Kasierreich's history is pretty fantastic. I've always thought syndicalism was very interesting, but at this point in time it's probably better left dead and buried. It was a product of its time.

>TFW you actually knew what Syndicalism was before the KR memes even existed

th-thanks revolutionary catalonia-chan, nyaa~~

Ugh, we get it, you were a lefty before it was cool.

[Torrocca]

>TFW you actually knew what Syndicalism was before the KR memes even existed

th-thanks revolutionary catalonia-chan, nyaa~~

Ugh, we get it, you were a lefty before it was cool.

Reformed Tankies are confirmed to be the one true hipsters.

I... don't know how I should process this information, beyond, of course, blaring a bass-boosted version of the Soviet anthem at 3 AM.

[Byzconia]

Ugh, we get it, you were a lefty before it was cool.

Reformed Tankies are confirmed to be the one true hipsters.

I... don't know how I should process this information, beyond, of course, blaring a bass-boosted version of the Soviet anthem at 3 AM.

Just another reason to dislike tankies, I suppose.

[Torrocca]

Reformed Tankies are confirmed to be the one true hipsters.

I... don't know how I should process this information, beyond, of course, blaring a bass-boosted version of the Soviet anthem at 3 AM.

Just another reason to dislike tankies, I suppose.

And more reason to embrace the entirety of the libertarian-left quadrant of the political compass!

[Ostroeuropa]

It's ridiculous but that mod probably boosted syndicalisms profile more than a lot of things have through pure memery.

It definitely seemed to me that there was a huge uptick in the number of people identifying as syndicalist online after that mod came out. Maybe thats just a dose of Baader-Meinhof though.

It fits perfectly that market socialism was marketed to people through a consumer good, and that it worked.

[Dialectical metaRealism]

And more reason to embrace the entirety of the libertarian-left quadrant of the political compass!

Personally, I am not [edit: a fan of] all of it. For instance, Kyle of Secular Talk fame calls himself a left libertarian. He also calls himself a progressive.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

And more reason to embrace the entirety of the libertarian-left quadrant of the political compass!

Personally, I am not about all of it. For instance, Kyle of Secular Talk fame calls himself a left libertarian. He also calls himself a progressive.

Kyle's okay. Not great, but ok.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Awfully convenient that the facts always seem to align with the person who's saying that's feelings.

It's such a ridiculous and hypocritical statement, considering Ben Shapiro's beliefs are as driven by emotion as everyone else's.

Given their almost supernatural reverence for reason, you would think that they would at least convert to Platonism or Neo-Confucianism and assert that reason is some sort of metaphysical entity which governs the world ala Anaxagoras or Zhu Xi. If you're going to have that amount of naive belief in something, might as well make it interesting. I would watch a PragerU video about how Yang Wangming did nothing wrong or how Plato was right all along.

My personal experiences has led me to believe in an almost terrifyingly emotionless form of pragmatism.

If you don't mind me prying, what personal experiences were those?