LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yet it was monarchy that was around for thousands of years and functioned perfectly well, curious.

Let’s ignore all the terrible or inefficient monarchs ever. Or the terrible systems that are aristocracy and feudalism. Or the fucking treasury drain that is court culture.

Good monarchs are a rarity, useless ones the norm, bad ones commonplace.

If that were the case, then monarchy wouldn't have lasted so long. The truth is it was a much more stable system than modern systems of organization, most of which haven't lasted very long at all.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Aristocracy and feudalism had their place in history.

And if that were the case, monarchy would have fallen apart centuries ago rather than relatively recently and at gunpoint.

Having a monopoly on violence is a great way to maintain control of society.
The majority were farmers and craftsmen and stood no chance against heavy cavalry who've been raised since birth as warriors, the gun changed that.

Peasant farmers were generally supportive of the monarchy and traditional ideas, it was urban bankers that were the driving force behind the modern revolutions.

[Valrifell]

Having a monopoly on violence is a great way to maintain control of society.
The majority were farmers and craftsmen and stood no chance against heavy cavalry who've been raised since birth as warriors, the gun changed that.

Peasant farmers were generally supportive of the monarchy and traditional ideas, it was urban bankers that were the driving force behind the modern revolutions.

Not necessarily bankers, but the middle and professional class, sure.

[Kowani]

Let’s ignore all the terrible or inefficient monarchs ever. Or the terrible systems that are aristocracy and feudalism. Or the fucking treasury drain that is court culture.

Good monarchs are a rarity, useless ones the norm, bad ones commonplace.

If that were the case, then monarchy wouldn't have lasted so long. The truth is it was a much more stable system than modern systems of organization, most of which haven't lasted very long at all.

This may just be a theory, but an uneducated, brainwashed populace which is often at the risk of dying of disease, starvation, warfare, or unpaid taxes is not going to complain too much. Stable, yes, but in the same way North Korea is-making the populace believe that their way is the best war. The other factors I mentioned don’t do much besides help preserve the system. Hierarchy of needs, and all that.

[United Muscovite Nations]

If that were the case, then monarchy wouldn't have lasted so long. The truth is it was a much more stable system than modern systems of organization, most of which haven't lasted very long at all.

This may just be a theory, but an uneducated, brainwashed populace which is often at the risk of dying of disease, starvation, warfare, or unpaid taxes is not going to complain too much. Stable, yes, but in the same way North Korea is-making the populace believe that their way is the best war. The other factors I mentioned don’t do much besides help preserve the system. Hierarchy of needs, and all that.

The truth though is that that stuff has little bearing on form of government.

[Kowani]

This may just be a theory, but an uneducated, brainwashed populace which is often at the risk of dying of disease, starvation, warfare, or unpaid taxes is not going to complain too much. Stable, yes, but in the same way North Korea is-making the populace believe that their way is the best war. The other factors I mentioned don’t do much besides help preserve the system. Hierarchy of needs, and all that.

The truth though is that that stuff has little bearing on form of government.

No? Brainwashing and censorship has no bearing on what forms of government people think are permissible? The physical inability to contemplate change because you’re too busy harvesting doesn’t make it harder to get any sort of improvement off the ground?

The state in which people live and the means by which it is maintained does very much affect government.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The truth though is that that stuff has little bearing on form of government.

No? Brainwashing and censorship has no bearing on what forms of government people think are permissible? The physical inability to contemplate change because you’re too busy harvesting doesn’t make it harder to get any sort of improvement off the ground?

The state in which people live and the means by which it is maintained does very much affect government.

There wasn't any brainwashing or censorship in medieval Europe, who would be doing the brainwashing and what would be the censorship?

And what I meant is that feudalism didn't cause that stuff, I worded it poorly.

[Kowani]

No? Brainwashing and censorship has no bearing on what forms of government people think are permissible? The physical inability to contemplate change because you’re too busy harvesting doesn’t make it harder to get any sort of improvement off the ground?

The state in which people live and the means by which it is maintained does very much affect government.

There wasn't any brainwashing or censorship in medieval Europe, who would be doing the brainwashing and what would be the censorship?

And what I meant is that feudalism didn't cause that stuff.

No brainwashing or censorship? So tell me, what was the church doing all that time? Freedom of the press is a relatively new idea, y’know.

Noooo. Nooone of it...

[United Muscovite Nations]

There wasn't any brainwashing or censorship in medieval Europe, who would be doing the brainwashing and what would be the censorship?

And what I meant is that feudalism didn't cause that stuff.

No brainwashing or censorship? So tell me, what was the church doing all that time? Freedom of the press is a relatively new idea, y’know.

Noooo. Nooone of it...

Mostly administering sacraments and copying manuscripts. There wasn't any reason to censor anything because anyone who was reading any serious stuff was probably already pretty far into the Church.

Yes, none of it. This may shock you, but the modern world came about as a consequence of developments in feudalism.

[Kowani]

No brainwashing or censorship? So tell me, what was the church doing all that time? Freedom of the press is a relatively new idea, y’know.

Noooo. Nooone of it...

Mostly administering sacraments and copying manuscripts. There wasn't any reason to censor anything because anyone who was reading any serious stuff was probably already pretty far into the Church.

Ignoring the Index of Prohibited Books, Jan Hus, and the reaction to the Protestant Reformation for a moment, when you only have one source of information (in this case the Church) then you’re going to have brainwashing.

Yes, none of it. This may shock you, but the modern world came about as a consequence of developments in feudalism.

So all the problems that existed in the Middle Ages were, despite being in the times of feudalism, completely independent of it.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Mostly administering sacraments and copying manuscripts. There wasn't any reason to censor anything because anyone who was reading any serious stuff was probably already pretty far into the Church.

Ignoring the Index of Prohibited Books, Jan Hus, and the reaction to the Protestant Reformation for a moment, when you only have one source of information (in this case the Church) then you’re going to have brainwashing.

Yes, none of it. This may shock you, but the modern world came about as a consequence of developments in feudalism.

So all the problems that existed in the Middle Ages were, despite being in the times of feudalism, completely independent of it.

The counterreformation isn't medieval.

The problems of the middle ages came from that they didn't have access to modern agricultural and industrial technology and were thus largely at the mercy of mother nature.

[Conserative Morality]

Mostly administering sacraments and copying manuscripts. There wasn't any reason to censor anything because anyone who was reading any serious stuff was probably already pretty far into the Church.

Yes, none of it. This may shock you, but the modern world came about as a consequence of developments in feudalism.

Are you being serious right now?

The Catholic Church ran a totalitarian society in which people were encouraged to rat on each other for eating too many meals in a day. Language itself was grounds for punishment. Books were regularly burned, some of which were the last known copies and are now lost to this day.

Are you fucking kidding me?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Mostly administering sacraments and copying manuscripts. There wasn't any reason to censor anything because anyone who was reading any serious stuff was probably already pretty far into the Church.

Yes, none of it. This may shock you, but the modern world came about as a consequence of developments in feudalism.

Are you being serious right now?

The Catholic Church ran a totalitarian society in which people were encouraged to rat on each other for eating too many meals in a day. Language itself was grounds for punishment. Books were regularly burned, some of which were the last known copies and are now lost to this day.

Are you fucking kidding me?

The Church barely did anything, that's literal protestant propaganda. Hell, most people weren't even married inside the church until recently, and it's well known that even in the heyday of the Inquisition, there wasn't much inquisitioning going on.

Source on regular book burnings?

[Kowani]

Ignoring the Index of Prohibited Books, Jan Hus, and the reaction to the Protestant Reformation for a moment, when you only have one source of information (in this case the Church) then you’re going to have brainwashing.

So all the problems that existed in the Middle Ages were, despite being in the times of feudalism, completely independent of it.

The counterreformation isn't medieval.

Imma let CM handle this part.

The problems of the middle ages came from that they didn't have access to modern agricultural and industrial technology and were thus largely at the mercy of mother nature.

And here’s a theory:

A class based social structure with exemptions, special duties and different rights written into law does not help innovation, especially when the classes are the opposite of meritocratic.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The counterreformation isn't medieval.

Imma let CM handle this part.

The problems of the middle ages came from that they didn't have access to modern agricultural and industrial technology and were thus largely at the mercy of mother nature.

And here’s a theory:

A class based social structure with exemptions, special duties and different rights written into law does not help innovation, especially when the classes are the opposite of meritocratic.

Yet feudal Europe achieved modernity long before non-feudal societies did.

[Valrifell]

Imma let CM handle this part.

And here’s a theory:

A class based social structure with exemptions, special duties and different rights written into law does not help innovation, especially when the classes are the opposite of meritocratic.

Yet feudal Europe achieved modernity long before non-feudal societies did.

Most would argue that a "modern feudal" society is a contradictory statement.

Modernity only really starting appearing long after the feudal society fell out of vogue.

[Kowani]

Imma let CM handle this part.

And here’s a theory:

A class based social structure with exemptions, special duties and different rights written into law does not help innovation, especially when the classes are the opposite of meritocratic.

Yet feudal Europe achieved modernity long before non-feudal societies did.

It’s almost like Europe had a geographical advantage...

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

Monarchies survived for centuries because the monarch could count on a small number of powerful aristocrats, clerics, etc. who controlled the military, clergy and economy. There's a very good reason most peasant rebellions failed miserably, and that monarchs were edged out by their own or foreign nobility. The only reason that monarchies liberalized was because the leadership realized that giving limited representation to the growing middle classes was a worthy transaction in return for money, which makes the world go round. But once you let loose the kraken, it's hard to put it back in without incredible repression.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yet feudal Europe achieved modernity long before non-feudal societies did.

Most would argue that a "modern feudal" society is a contradictory statement.

Modernity only really starting appearing long after the feudal society fell out of vogue.

No, feudalism led to modernity. Europe advanced far more from 800 to 1400 than the rest of the world.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yet feudal Europe achieved modernity long before non-feudal societies did.

It’s almost like Europe had a geographical advantage...

What geographical advantage did Europe have in the middle ages that China didn't?

[Conserative Morality]

The Church barely did anything, that's literal protestant propaganda.

Sweet fucking Jesus. This the same Church that barred Jews from appearing in public without markers? Who ghettoized them against their will? Who openly endorsed the torture and murder of heretics and infidels?

Hell, most people weren't even married inside the church until recently,

Oh, bullshit. The Church was the primary method for tracking and registering marriages, and Medieval law relied on the marriage status of individuals in regards to the Church's position on the legitimacy of their marriage and children.

and it's well known that even in the heyday of the Inquisition, there wasn't much inquisitioning going on.

The Inquisitions were minor in comparison to the horrors that preceded them. But hey, caedite eos, novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

Source on regular book burnings?

Well, we could go with your own church, which burned so many writings in the iconoclast debacle that we to this day have trouble discerning the positions taken, those declared as heretics were forced to burn their own books, if they recanted, or have their books burned for them, if they did not, some extant writings of Sappho were burned for being immoral, Talmuds, Qurans, Manichean texts... Arians, Cathars, Lollards, Hussites...

[Kowani]

It’s almost like Europe had a geographical advantage...

What geographical advantage did Europe have in the middle ages that China didn't?

Enemies against which to work, so a technological arms race. A constant need to produce more food because of bad geography and Ice Ages, so Agricultural improvements. Constant diseases due to lack of space, requiring improvements in health and sanitation. Not being capable of Autarky, and thereby avoiding stagnation.

[Valrifell]

Most would argue that a "modern feudal" society is a contradictory statement.

Modernity only really starting appearing long after the feudal society fell out of vogue.

No, feudalism led to modernity. Europe advanced far more from 800 to 1400 than the rest of the world.

I think I misread WRA's original statement.

Regardless, your second statement is false considering we call that period the Islamic Golden Age.

[Conserative Morality]

No, feudalism led to modernity. Europe advanced far more from 800 to 1400 than the rest of the world.

...

What.

What geographical advantage did Europe have in the middle ages that China didn't?

[internal screaming]

Do you understand how long the list of differences is? Entire classes are taught on this shit.

[Conserative Morality]

What geographical advantage did Europe have in the middle ages that China didn't?

Enemies against which to work, so a technological arms race. A constant need to produce more food because of bad geography and Ice Ages, so Agricultural improvements. Constant diseases due to lack of space, requiring improvements in health and sanitation. Not being capable of Autarky, and thereby avoiding stagnation.

An inland sea in a time when trade via land was horrifically slow and expensive. Many varied peninsula formations which created a much larger coast-to-inland ratio than China had, and one with much greater flexibility than the long, solid coast of eastern China. Strong, lasting divisions which created polities with reasonable consistent needs to compete against their neighbors. The list goes on and on and on and fucking on.