Both were terrible, deadly mistakes, particularly the Khmer Rouge.
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by Western Vale Confederacy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:35 pm
by New haven america » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:36 pm
Pasong Tirad wrote:Fahran wrote:There's also the perception that leftists have no regard for the values and traditions of agrarian communities. Fascists specifically appeal to those things while retaining a populist facade. They're still losing out to conservatives, of course, mostly due to the cult of the rugged individual and an instinctual mistrust of government, but they have gaps to exploit. The perceived middle-class and urban character of Antifa and socialist groups stymie their cause as well, at least in the rural regions of the country.
That may be true in the West, but in less developed corners of the globe left-wing groups have a lot of influence and support from rural groups, particularly in countries where peasants are routinely oppressed by central governments.
by Pasong Tirad » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:36 pm
by Western Vale Confederacy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:39 pm
by Torrocca » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:44 pm
Fahran wrote:Torrocca wrote:Red Scare tactics and the mere existence of post-USSR tankies don't really help leftists in securing rural camaraderie, to be fair.
There's also the perception that leftists have no regard for the values and traditions of agrarian communities. Fascists specifically appeal to those things while retaining a populist facade. They're still losing out to conservatives, of course, mostly due to the cult of the rugged individual and an instinctual mistrust of government, but they have gaps to exploit. The perceived middle-class and urban character of Antifa and socialist groups stymie their cause as well, at least in the rural regions of the country.
by Fahran » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:44 pm
Pasong Tirad wrote:That may be true in the West, but in less developed corners of the globe left-wing groups have a lot of influence and support from rural groups, particularly in countries where peasants are routinely oppressed by central governments.
by Pasong Tirad » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:46 pm
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:Yeah but that's not the point. Where did these left-wing revolutions get their support? The rural peasantry.
In Europe and North America however, socialist movements were largely based in urban or industrial areas, with rural folk falling mostly behind conservative leadership.
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:Socialists were never particularly good at attracting the rural working class to their cause.
by Pasong Tirad » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:49 pm
Fahran wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:That may be true in the West, but in less developed corners of the globe left-wing groups have a lot of influence and support from rural groups, particularly in countries where peasants are routinely oppressed by central governments.
You have a point to an extent, but I wouldn't describe most of those socialist groups as orthodox leftists in some cases. You have groups like the Zapatistas and PKK (and its splinter groups) that combine a sort of indigenous nationalism with striving towards more commonly recognized themes in leftism - such as atheism, feminism, proletarian struggle, and collective ownership of the means of production. These are often tailored to fit the traditional modes of being though. Some left-wing movements, especially in parts of Latin America, also have socially conservative tendencies. Not really a rarity, but it's important to note when we're contrasting them with their western counterparts. How many westerners would support Islamic socialism, really?
by Valrifell » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:49 pm
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:Yeah but that's not the point. Where did these left-wing revolutions get their support? The rural peasantry.
In Europe and North America however, socialist movements were largely based in urban or industrial areas, with rural folk falling mostly behind conservative leadership.
by Northern Davincia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:34 pm
Duvniask wrote:This one. I'm using the generally accepted criteria of what constitutes a capitalist system, as distinct from other socio-economic systems. This is the one Marx and Engels arrived at in their analysis.
What about you? It seems like you just arbitrarily decided that competition (along supply and demand) was the central feature of capitalism, so that monopoly capitalism couldn't possibly exist.
Whereas Western capitalism largely eliminates (but doesn't downright kill) small business owners through competition, monopolization, purchase, etc., the Soviet Union took the violent state-sponsored approach, seizing small business and bringing them into the state; this effectively meant making them part of capital on the national level. It killed small capitalists in service of the universal capitalist state.
Words mean nothing, I see.
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Grenartia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:38 pm
by Torrocca » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:43 pm
by Bienenhalde » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:43 pm
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:Finally, Harry Potter becomes more than just liberal shit.
by Bienenhalde » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:48 pm
Valrifell wrote:Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
In Europe and North America however, socialist movements were largely based in urban or industrial areas, with rural folk falling mostly behind conservative leadership.
Alexa, who is William Jennings Bryan?
I know it's a stretch to call him a Socialist, but he did navigate the creation of a functioning farmer-labor bloc. Plus there's the Populist Party. Shame his own party actively worked against him.
by Pasong Tirad » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:01 pm
Bienenhalde wrote:Valrifell wrote:
Alexa, who is William Jennings Bryan?
I know it's a stretch to call him a Socialist, but he did navigate the creation of a functioning farmer-labor bloc. Plus there's the Populist Party. Shame his own party actively worked against him.
Bryan was a wonderful man. Too bad he never became president.
by Northern Davincia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:05 pm
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Kubra » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:38 pm
McKinley? Teddy's whipping boy?
by Northern Davincia » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:42 pm
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Pasong Tirad » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:46 pm
by Kubra » Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:47 pm
Sure, that was a good move on Teddy's part, McKinley is lucky to have been along for the ride.
by The Liberated Territories » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:29 pm
Northern Davincia wrote:Duvniask wrote:This one. I'm using the generally accepted criteria of what constitutes a capitalist system, as distinct from other socio-economic systems. This is the one Marx and Engels arrived at in their analysis.
What about you? It seems like you just arbitrarily decided that competition (along supply and demand) was the central feature of capitalism, so that monopoly capitalism couldn't possibly exist.
"Socialists are allowed to define socialism but capitalists aren't allowed to define capitalism."
Competition is one of the central features, yes. Property rights are another. You are not using the generally-accepted criteria, only a Marxist interpretation.Whereas Western capitalism largely eliminates (but doesn't downright kill) small business owners through competition, monopolization, purchase, etc., the Soviet Union took the violent state-sponsored approach, seizing small business and bringing them into the state; this effectively meant making them part of capital on the national level. It killed small capitalists in service of the universal capitalist state.
To the contrary, small businesses vastly outnumber their larger counterparts.Words mean nothing, I see.
To you, yes.
by The Xenopolis Confederation » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:03 pm
The Liberated Territories wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:"Socialists are allowed to define socialism but capitalists aren't allowed to define capitalism."
Competition is one of the central features, yes. Property rights are another. You are not using the generally-accepted criteria, only a Marxist interpretation.
To the contrary, small businesses vastly outnumber their larger counterparts.
To you, yes.
NB in a true market anarchist society (whatever you call it, anarcho-'capitalist' or mutualist), property rights would be much more fluid and stringent. In order for these rights to be respected, you would have to work the land and not inherit it from some long dead ancestor whose only right was squatting on the land first. This also goes for large corporations who had been around for years.
by The Liberated Territories » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:20 pm
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:The Liberated Territories wrote:
NB in a true market anarchist society (whatever you call it, anarcho-'capitalist' or mutualist), property rights would be much more fluid and stringent. In order for these rights to be respected, you would have to work the land and not inherit it from some long dead ancestor whose only right was squatting on the land first. This also goes for large corporations who had been around for years.
Or would they?
by Western Vale Confederacy » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:23 pm
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