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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:25 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:Here are two paragraphs from one of my books:

Mōšẹh ʾẠhărōn hạ•Lēwiy bẹn Hẹʿrəšẹʿl (Mark A. Foster) wrote:As a libertarian communist, not a left populist, I do not want weaponized enemies. Revolutionary communists alone should carry. I am unaware of any communist revolutionaries committing mass murder in universities. In the U.S., the National Rifle Association (NRA) has successfully promoted an absurdity, that anyone can bring guns onto college campuses. If so, I might, albeit tongue in cheek, counter the NRA’s argument. Average citizens carrying guns have created multiple deaths upon deaths. Police officers, for their part, routinely assassinate unarmed Black women and men. As an aside, for some reason, sexism perhaps, the female victims of police brutality are rarely, if ever, headlined by the media. Why should I trust the cops? I have, as one unarmed by my own choice, remained unpersuaded. Many of the most appalling incidents have centered around the cops themselves.

The proletarian vanguard will, when the time arrives, distinguish between revolutionaries, who should have guns, and renegades. The point of gun ownership, for a libertarian Marxist, is revolution, not the counterrevolutionary gun culture’s misinterpretation of the U.S. Constitution as guns just for their own sake. The founding fathers opposed an army and endorsed armed militias in the Second Amendment―later annulled by the U.S. Army. Why, however, would a communist want their counterrevolutionary enemies, especially the police, to have guns? Sadly, whenever this subject comes up, people engage in name–calling. Someone called me authoritarian. I may be many things, including an empathetic person, but an authoritarian is not one of them. Some people seem incapable of discussing any number of issues without lashing out at others. That is clearly not helpful for anyone.

Ṭarīqaẗ ʾal•Bāhuwiyyaẗ of The Multiversal Communist Collective


>man wants to literally disarm anybody but his own ideological comrades
>pretends to have the moral high ground when people get insulted and call him an authoritarian

That logic is bloody stupid!

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Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12709
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:26 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Democratic Communist Federation wrote:Here are two paragraphs from one of my books:


When you say only communist revolutionaries should be allowed to have guns, do you mean the leaders of the revolution or everyone in the revolution? If it's the latter, how do you hope to enforce it?

Through authoritarian means, obviously.
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Democratic Communist Federation wrote:Here are two paragraphs from one of my books:



>man wants to literally disarm anybody but his own ideological comrades
>pretends to have the moral high ground when people get insulted and call him an authoritarian

That logic is bloody stupid!

DCF also advocated the surveillance of capitalists.
Last edited by Northern Davincia on Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Democratic Communist Federation
Senator
 
Posts: 3775
Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:41 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:That logic is bloody stupid!


In communism, libertarianism is socialism from below. Authoritarianism is socialism from above. Libertarian communists do not buy into the right-wing definition of libertarianism. In other words, my logic is not stupid. I am just not a right-winger.

It is impossible to have freedom under capitalism. Therefore, capitalism must be eliminated. Communism is freedom. Capitalism is chains.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:11 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:>man wants to literally disarm anybody but his own ideological comrades
>pretends to have the moral high ground when people get insulted and call him an authoritarian

That logic is bloody stupid!
Marx: the only possible outcome of capitalism is a violent revolution where the state will take absolute control of everything and suppress all opposition
Marxists: yeah but what if I call myself a libertarian Marxist so then it's different :eyebrow:
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

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Proctopeo
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9954
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:13 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:That logic is bloody stupid!


In communism, libertarianism is socialism from below. Authoritarianism is socialism from above. Libertarian communists do not buy into the right-wing definition of libertarianism. In other words, my logic is not stupid. I am just not a right-winger.

Your logic is stupid regardless of your wing.

It is impossible to have freedom under capitalism. Therefore, capitalism must be eliminated. Communism is freedom. Capitalism is chains.

That sounds very dogmatic and authoritarian.
Center-right libertarian LockeabooEconomic: 5.25
Meme addict :^)Social: -3.74
Manga is literatureWill probably retake once every month or so, last updated 3/8/2019
RIP Balk
Crockerland wrote:Yes, we are aware, the Israelis protect their civilians with weapons while the Palestinians protect their weapons with civilians.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:17 pm

It's impossible to be truly libertarian on the left or right without accepting that some people are not going to want to live in your imaginary utopia and they can do so without you if they want.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12709
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:18 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:That logic is bloody stupid!


In communism, libertarianism is socialism from below. Authoritarianism is socialism from above. Libertarian communists do not buy into the right-wing definition of libertarianism. In other words, my logic is not stupid. I am just not a right-winger.

It is impossible to have freedom under capitalism. Therefore, capitalism must be eliminated. Communism is freedom. Capitalism is chains.

Dictatorship of the proletariat sounds antithetical to freedom, considering it's nothing more than mob rule.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:20 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:Dictatorship of the proletariat sounds antithetical to freedom, considering it's nothing more than mob rule.
No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21978
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Valrifell » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Dictatorship of the proletariat sounds antithetical to freedom, considering it's nothing more than mob rule.
No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.


The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.
I like to imagine Sisyphus happy
I did some things

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12709
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:22 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Dictatorship of the proletariat sounds antithetical to freedom, considering it's nothing more than mob rule.
No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.

"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25898
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:23 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.


The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.


Marxism: achieved

It's Stalinism time 8)
Libertarian Democratic Socialist. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia and Revolutionary Rojava Forever! ^_^
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12709
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:24 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.


Marxism: achieved

It's Stalinism time 8)

First order of business: icepicks, and the demand thereof in Mexico.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:26 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Marxism: achieved

It's Stalinism time 8)

First order of business: icepicks, and the demand thereof in Mexico.

Image
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:27 pm

Valrifell wrote:The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.
Fucking kulaks.
Northern Davincia wrote:"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.
"Why does Marxism always result in mass murder and dictatorship? Must be the capitalists. Oh, btw it never happened."
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Democratic Communist Federation
Senator
 
Posts: 3775
Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:28 pm

Autarkheia wrote:It's impossible to be truly libertarian on the left or right without accepting that some people are not going to want to live in your imaginary utopia and they can do so without you if they want.


It is only make-believe if communists try to describe future communism in detail. Communists are not prophets.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12709
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:30 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:It's impossible to be truly libertarian on the left or right without accepting that some people are not going to want to live in your imaginary utopia and they can do so without you if they want.


It is only make-believe if communists try to describe future communism in detail. Communists are not prophets.

They could at least describe enough to have a livable, functioning society after the revolution, instead of leaving enough vagueness for Stalinists to take advantage of.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3660
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:30 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.

"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.

>hurr durr i cannot read

I am not surprised that you cannot ask "Terror against who?" or "Terror for what?"

The point Marx makes in that quote is that every revolution has revolutionary terror. The question is who that terror is directed at and why.

Autarkheia wrote:
Valrifell wrote:The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.
Fucking kulaks.
Northern Davincia wrote:"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.
"Why does Marxism always result in mass murder and dictatorship? Must be the capitalists. Oh, btw it never happened."

"Marxism always results"

You have no idea what you are talking about. Marxism is a method of historical analysis and analysis of Capitalism. Socialism is the word you want to use, and you are wrong anyways. I suggest you read a little bit of Marx before talking about Marxism or Socialism like you understand it completely.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

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Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3660
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:31 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
It is only make-believe if communists try to describe future communism in detail. Communists are not prophets.

They could at least describe enough to have a livable, functioning society after the revolution, instead of leaving enough vagueness for Stalinists to take advantage of.

>i don't like the fastest industrialization in history
>i don't like literacy
>i don't like infrastructure

100% ancap
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:32 pm

Communists aren't prophets yet they literally believe they can predict the Rapture what the current socioeconomic system will be replaced by. Riight.
Last edited by Autarkheia on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3660
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:33 pm

Autarkheia wrote:Communists aren't prophets yet they literally believe they can predict the Rapturewhat the current socioeconomic system will be replaced by. Riight.

Do you mean to say that any analysis of the economy and prediction of where it might end up is impossible? Marx based his predictions for what Communism might be like on economic reality and where things were going at the time, and still are going.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12709
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:36 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.

>hurr durr i cannot read

I am not surprised that you cannot ask "Terror against who?" or "Terror for what?"

The point Marx makes in that quote is that every revolution has revolutionary terror. The question is who that terror is directed at and why.

In practice, the terror is against anyone deemed sufficiently counterrevolutionary. There is little in the way of stopping atrocities.
Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:They could at least describe enough to have a livable, functioning society after the revolution, instead of leaving enough vagueness for Stalinists to take advantage of.

>i don't like the fastest industrialization in history
>i don't like literacy
>i don't like infrastructure

100% ancap

North Korea is a wonderful place to live, I hear.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:36 pm

Orostan wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:Communists aren't prophets yet they literally believe they can predict the Rapturewhat the current socioeconomic system will be replaced by. Riight.

Do you mean to say that any analysis of the economy and prediction of where it might end up is impossible? Marx based his predictions for what Communism might be like on economic reality and where things were going at the time, and still are going.


Leftism is growing, but not through revolution.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 769
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:36 pm

No, I am saying Marx's predictions, though they might have been reasonable at the time, were apparently wrong.

But I don't debate with tankies, sorry.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12709
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:37 pm

Autarkheia wrote:No, I am saying Marx's predictions, though they might have been reasonable at the time, were apparently wrong.

But I don't debate with tankies, sorry.

Debating with tankies is fun, though.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 3660
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:37 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:>hurr durr i cannot read

I am not surprised that you cannot ask "Terror against who?" or "Terror for what?"

The point Marx makes in that quote is that every revolution has revolutionary terror. The question is who that terror is directed at and why.

In practice, the terror is against anyone deemed sufficiently counterrevolutionary. There is little in the way of stopping atrocities.
Orostan wrote:>i don't like the fastest industrialization in history
>i don't like literacy
>i don't like infrastructure

100% ancap

North Korea is a wonderful place to live, I hear.

1) You mean people who burn grain during famines and fascists?

2) I was referencing the Soviet Union.
local neighborhood gommunist xxxddd

“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.

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