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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11801
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:13 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:That logic is bloody stupid!


In communism, libertarianism is socialism from below. Authoritarianism is socialism from above. Libertarian communists do not buy into the right-wing definition of libertarianism. In other words, my logic is not stupid. I am just not a right-winger.

Your logic is stupid regardless of your wing.

It is impossible to have freedom under capitalism. Therefore, capitalism must be eliminated. Communism is freedom. Capitalism is chains.

That sounds very dogmatic and authoritarian.
ec 4.38 soc -3.95
I don't like most tankies/red fascists
China Lied, People Died.
6500 Year-Old Soomer
RIP the LWDT and RWDT, may their legacy live on

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 776
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:17 pm

It's impossible to be truly libertarian on the left or right without accepting that some people are not going to want to live in your imaginary utopia and they can do so without you if they want.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16187
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:18 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:That logic is bloody stupid!


In communism, libertarianism is socialism from below. Authoritarianism is socialism from above. Libertarian communists do not buy into the right-wing definition of libertarianism. In other words, my logic is not stupid. I am just not a right-winger.

It is impossible to have freedom under capitalism. Therefore, capitalism must be eliminated. Communism is freedom. Capitalism is chains.

Dictatorship of the proletariat sounds antithetical to freedom, considering it's nothing more than mob rule.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 776
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:20 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:Dictatorship of the proletariat sounds antithetical to freedom, considering it's nothing more than mob rule.
No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Valrifell
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26473
Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Dictatorship of the proletariat sounds antithetical to freedom, considering it's nothing more than mob rule.
No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.


The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.
For the benefit of all humankind

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16187
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:22 pm

Autarkheia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Dictatorship of the proletariat sounds antithetical to freedom, considering it's nothing more than mob rule.
No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.

"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 26912
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Torrocca » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:23 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.


The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.


Marxism: achieved

It's Stalinism time 8)
Communist now and forever.
I am Her Majesty, Torra I, of the House Anarkittismo, NS's self-anointed Anarcho-Monarchist Queen. Now known as God-Empress Torra.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - [b]Buenaventura Durruti

"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16187
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:24 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.


Marxism: achieved

It's Stalinism time 8)

First order of business: icepicks, and the demand thereof in Mexico.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Pasong Tirad
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9979
Founded: May 31, 2007
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pasong Tirad » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:26 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Marxism: achieved

It's Stalinism time 8)

First order of business: icepicks, and the demand thereof in Mexico.

Image
Last edited by Pasong Tirad on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 776
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:27 pm

Valrifell wrote:The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.
Fucking kulaks.
Northern Davincia wrote:"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.
"Why does Marxism always result in mass murder and dictatorship? Must be the capitalists. Oh, btw it never happened."
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Democratic Communist Federation
Senator
 
Posts: 3829
Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:28 pm

Autarkheia wrote:It's impossible to be truly libertarian on the left or right without accepting that some people are not going to want to live in your imaginary utopia and they can do so without you if they want.


It is only make-believe if communists try to describe future communism in detail. Communists are not prophets.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16187
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:30 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:It's impossible to be truly libertarian on the left or right without accepting that some people are not going to want to live in your imaginary utopia and they can do so without you if they want.


It is only make-believe if communists try to describe future communism in detail. Communists are not prophets.

They could at least describe enough to have a livable, functioning society after the revolution, instead of leaving enough vagueness for Stalinists to take advantage of.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 4369
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:30 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:No but see the proles will have super duper class consciousness and will certainly not commit any atrocities like what happens in most other revolutions. They have the power of God and anime Marx and Engels on their side.

"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.

>hurr durr i cannot read

I am not surprised that you cannot ask "Terror against who?" or "Terror for what?"

The point Marx makes in that quote is that every revolution has revolutionary terror. The question is who that terror is directed at and why.

Autarkheia wrote:
Valrifell wrote:The proles will only commit atrocities on people we don't care about, so it's fine guys.
Fucking kulaks.
Northern Davincia wrote:"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.
"Why does Marxism always result in mass murder and dictatorship? Must be the capitalists. Oh, btw it never happened."

"Marxism always results"

You have no idea what you are talking about. Marxism is a method of historical analysis and analysis of Capitalism. Socialism is the word you want to use, and you are wrong anyways. I suggest you read a little bit of Marx before talking about Marxism or Socialism like you understand it completely.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.


Orostan wrote:you have posted cringe, your workers are going to unionize and kill you.

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 4369
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:31 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
It is only make-believe if communists try to describe future communism in detail. Communists are not prophets.

They could at least describe enough to have a livable, functioning society after the revolution, instead of leaving enough vagueness for Stalinists to take advantage of.

>i don't like the fastest industrialization in history
>i don't like literacy
>i don't like infrastructure

100% ancap
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.


Orostan wrote:you have posted cringe, your workers are going to unionize and kill you.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 776
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:32 pm

Communists aren't prophets yet they literally believe they can predict the Rapture what the current socioeconomic system will be replaced by. Riight.
Last edited by Autarkheia on Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 4369
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:33 pm

Autarkheia wrote:Communists aren't prophets yet they literally believe they can predict the Rapturewhat the current socioeconomic system will be replaced by. Riight.

Do you mean to say that any analysis of the economy and prediction of where it might end up is impossible? Marx based his predictions for what Communism might be like on economic reality and where things were going at the time, and still are going.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.


Orostan wrote:you have posted cringe, your workers are going to unionize and kill you.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16187
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:36 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:"We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror."
Marxists do not deny the likelihood of atrocities, they just view their tyranny as preferable, and then act surprised when Maoists and Stalinists send them to the gulag.

>hurr durr i cannot read

I am not surprised that you cannot ask "Terror against who?" or "Terror for what?"

The point Marx makes in that quote is that every revolution has revolutionary terror. The question is who that terror is directed at and why.

In practice, the terror is against anyone deemed sufficiently counterrevolutionary. There is little in the way of stopping atrocities.
Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:They could at least describe enough to have a livable, functioning society after the revolution, instead of leaving enough vagueness for Stalinists to take advantage of.

>i don't like the fastest industrialization in history
>i don't like literacy
>i don't like infrastructure

100% ancap

North Korea is a wonderful place to live, I hear.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Western Vale Confederacy
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9219
Founded: Nov 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Western Vale Confederacy » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:36 pm

Orostan wrote:
Autarkheia wrote:Communists aren't prophets yet they literally believe they can predict the Rapturewhat the current socioeconomic system will be replaced by. Riight.

Do you mean to say that any analysis of the economy and prediction of where it might end up is impossible? Marx based his predictions for what Communism might be like on economic reality and where things were going at the time, and still are going.


Leftism is growing, but not through revolution.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 776
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:36 pm

No, I am saying Marx's predictions, though they might have been reasonable at the time, were apparently wrong.

But I don't debate with tankies, sorry.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16187
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:37 pm

Autarkheia wrote:No, I am saying Marx's predictions, though they might have been reasonable at the time, were apparently wrong.

But I don't debate with tankies, sorry.

Debating with tankies is fun, though.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 4369
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:37 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Orostan wrote:>hurr durr i cannot read

I am not surprised that you cannot ask "Terror against who?" or "Terror for what?"

The point Marx makes in that quote is that every revolution has revolutionary terror. The question is who that terror is directed at and why.

In practice, the terror is against anyone deemed sufficiently counterrevolutionary. There is little in the way of stopping atrocities.
Orostan wrote:>i don't like the fastest industrialization in history
>i don't like literacy
>i don't like infrastructure

100% ancap

North Korea is a wonderful place to live, I hear.

1) You mean people who burn grain during famines and fascists?

2) I was referencing the Soviet Union.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.


Orostan wrote:you have posted cringe, your workers are going to unionize and kill you.

User avatar
Orostan
Senator
 
Posts: 4369
Founded: May 02, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Orostan » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:38 pm

Autarkheia wrote:No, I am saying Marx's predictions, though they might have been reasonable at the time, were apparently wrong.

But I don't debate with tankies, sorry.

>I refuse to acknowledge my opponents position because reasons

smug, aren't you?
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN


Sagarmatha wrote:You have a corporatist brain. "It's more faster so it's better". Profit, profit, profit my dear Neoliberal, never forget why you exist. Profit, profit, profit.


Orostan wrote:you have posted cringe, your workers are going to unionize and kill you.

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 776
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:39 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:Debating with tankies is fun, though.
Nah, it's not to me. I find it very frustrating and repetitive. I would almost rather debate an ancap. Almost.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16187
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Orostan wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:In practice, the terror is against anyone deemed sufficiently counterrevolutionary. There is little in the way of stopping atrocities.

North Korea is a wonderful place to live, I hear.

1) You mean people who burn grain during famines and fascists?

2) I was referencing the Soviet Union.

1. More like scientists, artists, writers, etc.
2. Yes, and I was hoping that you'd pick up on the idea that material conditions aren't enough to have a society worth living in. I'd rather be broke in the US than well-off in the USSR.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Autarkheia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 776
Founded: Jun 22, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Autarkheia » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:40 pm

Orostan wrote:smug, aren't you?
I'd rather be smug than a tankie.
We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the right, a Fascist century. If the XIXth century was the century of the individual (liberalism implies individualism) we are free to believe that this is the "collective" century, and therefore the century of the State.

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