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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
Bakery Hill
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11973
Founded: Jul 03, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Bakery Hill » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:15 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
The lumpenproletariat and the proletariat used to be a single class. It was unionization, which Marx and Engels were involved in, which resulted in the distinction between those two classes. If unionization spreads to the lumpenproletariat, which may not occur until the possible revolution, they will cease being an independent class.

The lumpenproletariat is literally the dregs of society, the worst of the worst, such as criminals. You can't spread unionization to such a segment of society:

(This) essentially parasitical group was largely the remains of older, obsolete stages of social development, and that it could not normally play a progressive role in history. Indeed, because it acted only out of socially ignorant self-interest, the lumpenproletariat was easily bribed by reactionary forces and could be used to combat the true proletariat in its efforts to bring about the end of bourgeois society. Without a clear class-consciousness, the lumpenproletariat could not play a positive role in society. Instead, it exploited society for its own ends, and was in turn exploited as a tool of destruction and reaction.
Bussard, Robert L. (1987). "The 'dangerous class' of Marx and Engels: The rise of the idea of the Lumpenproletariat". p. 677.

The lumpenproletariat is passive decaying matter of the lowest layers of the old society, is here and there thrust into the [progressive] movement by a proletarian revolution; [however,] in accordance with its whole way of life, it is more likely to sell out to reactionary intrigues.
Ibid, p. 677.

I think this characterisation goes into an unscientific and at times prejudiced place. It has all too often been a term directed by armchair Marxists against people like sex workers and the homeless and it plays into these fundamentally bourgeois ideas of the deserving and undeserving poor.

Historically I can see why Marx thought how he did. He had in mind the Mobile Guard of the June Days and the Lazzaroni of Naples during the French Revolution. Both groups backed reaction over revolution. But they did so not because they were part of some real and distinct class. They did so because of sectional interests and false ideology, the same reason as any other member of the working class. When the next revolution came around those groups were on the right side.
Founder of the Committee for Proletarian Morality - Winner of Best Communist Award 2018 - Godfather of NSG Syndicalism

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Liriena
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Posts: 60885
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Liriena » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:43 pm

be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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Pasong Tirad
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Posts: 12003
Founded: May 31, 2007
Democratic Socialists

Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:51 pm


Doesn't get yelled at enough, if you ask me.

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United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25657
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:55 pm


Wish people would do this to every news anchor.
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Second Empire of America
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 486
Founded: Feb 23, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Second Empire of America » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:04 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:I see the thread is still undergoing its invasion by hardline right wingers.


Sadly, but such is life. Today, my concern is that I was diagnosed with full-blown osteoporosis, not NationStates.


I'm so sorry. :( Are you going to be okay?
I have left NationStates. This account is inactive and will not respond to any form of communication.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9578
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:08 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:

Doesn't get yelled at enough, if you ask me.

Why do people hate Tucker Carlson. I'm legitimately curious, as I don't watch him, but he appears reasonable every time I see a video of him. Just seems like an average conservative to me.
Last edited by The Xenopolis Confederation on Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Northern Davincia
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Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:10 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Doesn't get yelled at enough, if you ask me.

Why do people hate Tucker Carlson. I'm legitimately curious, as I don't watch him, but he appears reasonable every time I see a video of him.

"Right-wing TV man bad" is the reason.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9578
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:15 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:I see the thread is still undergoing its invasion by hardline right wingers.

I see this public forum is still a public forum.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
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Conserative Morality
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 76676
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Ex-Nation

Postby Conserative Morality » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:15 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Doesn't get yelled at enough, if you ask me.

Why do people hate Tucker Carlson. I'm legitimately curious, as I don't watch him, but he appears reasonable every time I see a video of him. Just seems like an average conservative to me.

Did a quick look at his wiki page, seems pretty questionable.
Carlson has been accused by Erik Wemple of The Washington Post and by writers for Vox.com of demonizing immigrants, both legal and illegal.[38][39][40][41] He has opposed demographic changes in the United States, writing that the demographic change seen in Hazleton, Pa., which saw Hispanics go from a small minority to a majority over a 15-year period is "more change than human beings are designed to digest."[41] [41] Salon.com has described Carlson's views on changing racial demographics in the U.S. as advocating the white genocide conspiracy theory,[42] opining that Carlson is obsessed with the concept.[43] The Anti-Defamation League's Jessica Reaves has analyzed his use of "white genocide" rhetoric in a 2018 monologue.[44]

In September 2018, Carlson said that sexual assault allegations against Supreme Court justice nominee Brett Kavanaugh demonstrated the "the left’s war on old white men", and suggested that there could be a race war in the United States.[45]

Just a brief look, this the first I've heard of him.
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The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:23 pm

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Korouse wrote:Fuck off. I live near an Indian reservation. There's barely any fucking clean water there, not to mention all the homelessness and suicide going on. Take your 1/128th Iroquois fat white ass over to one sometime.

Korouse: *** 3 day ban for flaming. *** You should know better by now than to respond to other posters, no matter how frustrating you may find their views, with flaming.

The Northern Davincia earlier suggested laying landmines across the border to kill refugees.

Seems disproportionate to punish Korouse for getting annoyed and saying something crude.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9578
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:24 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:Why do people hate Tucker Carlson. I'm legitimately curious, as I don't watch him, but he appears reasonable every time I see a video of him. Just seems like an average conservative to me.

Did a quick look at his wiki page, seems pretty questionable.
Carlson has been accused by Erik Wemple of The Washington Post and by writers for Vox.com of demonizing immigrants, both legal and illegal.[38][39][40][41] He has opposed demographic changes in the United States, writing that the demographic change seen in Hazleton, Pa., which saw Hispanics go from a small minority to a majority over a 15-year period is "more change than human beings are designed to digest."[41] [41] Salon.com has described Carlson's views on changing racial demographics in the U.S. as advocating the white genocide conspiracy theory,[42] opining that Carlson is obsessed with the concept.[43] The Anti-Defamation League's Jessica Reaves has analyzed his use of "white genocide" rhetoric in a 2018 monologue.[44]

In September 2018, Carlson said that sexual assault allegations against Supreme Court justice nominee Brett Kavanaugh demonstrated the "the left’s war on old white men", and suggested that there could be a race war in the United States.[45]

Just a brief look, this the first I've heard of him.

The anti-immigration and demographic changes stuff is a tad questionable yeah, but it's nowhere near full 1488. And claiming saying "war on old white men" is advocating race war is stupid.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
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Kubra
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17237
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Father Knows Best State

Postby Kubra » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:25 pm

The Batorys wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:Korouse: *** 3 day ban for flaming. *** You should know better by now than to respond to other posters, no matter how frustrating you may find their views, with flaming.

The Northern Davincia earlier suggested laying landmines across the border to kill refugees.

Seems disproportionate to punish Korouse for getting annoyed and saying something crude.
We're allowed to say some frankly unsavoury stuff so long as they don't become personal attacks.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
Comrade J. Posadas

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The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:25 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:I see the thread is still undergoing its invasion by hardline right wingers.

Yep. There's a rule against calling them what they are, too.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
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The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:26 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
The lumpenproletariat and the proletariat used to be a single class. It was unionization, which Marx and Engels were involved in, which resulted in the distinction between those two classes. If unionization spreads to the lumpenproletariat, which may not occur until the possible revolution, they will cease being an independent class.

The lumpenproletariat is literally the dregs of society, the worst of the worst, such as criminals. You can't spread unionization to such a segment of society:

(This) essentially parasitical group was largely the remains of older, obsolete stages of social development, and that it could not normally play a progressive role in history. Indeed, because it acted only out of socially ignorant self-interest, the lumpenproletariat was easily bribed by reactionary forces and could be used to combat the true proletariat in its efforts to bring about the end of bourgeois society. Without a clear class-consciousness, the lumpenproletariat could not play a positive role in society. Instead, it exploited society for its own ends, and was in turn exploited as a tool of destruction and reaction.
Bussard, Robert L. (1987). "The 'dangerous class' of Marx and Engels: The rise of the idea of the Lumpenproletariat". p. 677.

The lumpenproletariat is passive decaying matter of the lowest layers of the old society, is here and there thrust into the [progressive] movement by a proletarian revolution; [however,] in accordance with its whole way of life, it is more likely to sell out to reactionary intrigues.
Ibid, p. 677.

There are sex workers' unions despite a lot of sex work being illegal.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:27 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:I see the thread is still undergoing its invasion by hardline right wingers.


And the RWDT is full of leftists.

It's the balance of the NSG.

Report them for trolling.

I don't go in there and have no desire to.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:27 pm

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:I see the thread is still undergoing its invasion by hardline right wingers.


Sadly, but such is life. Today, my concern is that I was diagnosed with full-blown osteoporosis, not NationStates.

Sorry to hear that. :(
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:31 pm


How about "fuck you, you professional whiner!"?

Because that's what he is.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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The Xenopolis Confederation
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9578
Founded: Aug 11, 2017
Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:33 pm

The Batorys wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:I see the thread is still undergoing its invasion by hardline right wingers.

Yep. There's a rule against calling them what they are, too.

You can't call them hardline right-wingers?
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Deontology, Progressive Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, State Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Apple, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
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Kaggeceria
Minister
 
Posts: 3000
Founded: Feb 19, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaggeceria » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:34 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
The Batorys wrote:Yep. There's a rule against calling them what they are, too.

You can't call them hardline right-wingers?

No, he likes to call anyone right-wing a Nazi like much of the NSG leftists and then he feels victimized when people don't take kindly to that.
The Kaggecerian Realm (PMT)
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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:34 pm

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
The Batorys wrote:Yep. There's a rule against calling them what they are, too.

You can't call them hardline right-wingers?

It's basically the top swear-word.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:35 pm

Kubra wrote:
The Batorys wrote:The Northern Davincia earlier suggested laying landmines across the border to kill refugees.

Seems disproportionate to punish Korouse for getting annoyed and saying something crude.
We're allowed to say some frankly unsavoury stuff so long as they don't become personal attacks.

That's literally calling for people to die.
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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FelrikTheDeleted
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8949
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:35 pm

The Batorys wrote:Report them for trolling.[…]


Why?

The Batorys wrote:[…]I don't go in there and have no desire to.


Good for you.

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FelrikTheDeleted
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8949
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:36 pm

The Batorys wrote:
Kubra wrote: We're allowed to say some frankly unsavoury stuff so long as they don't become personal attacks.

That's literally calling for people to die.


Quotation, please?

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FelrikTheDeleted
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8949
Founded: Aug 27, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby FelrikTheDeleted » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:37 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:I see the thread is still undergoing its invasion by hardline right wingers.


Please, mate, just get over it.

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The Batorys
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5703
Founded: Oct 12, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Batorys » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:41 pm

FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
The Batorys wrote:Report them for trolling.[…]


Why?

The Batorys wrote:[…]I don't go in there and have no desire to.


Good for you.

Because that's what they're doing?
Mallorea and Riva should resign
This is an alternate history version of Callisdrun.
Here is the (incomplete) Factbook
Ask me about The Forgotten Lands!
Pro: Feminism, environmentalism, BLM, LGBTQUILTBAG, BDSM, unions, hyphy, Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Oakland, old San Francisco, the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and fully automated gay luxury space communism
Anti: Misogyny, fossil fuels, racism, homophobia, kink-shaming, capitalism, LA, Silicon Valley, techies, Brezhnev, the Galactic Empire, and the "alt-right"

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