LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Northern Davincia]

I am a right-leaning centrist who thinks both sides have good ideas, and i think communism could work, but its losing my trust with it having no freedom of speech.

communism would not work. in theory, anarchist communism would allow absolute freedom of speech.

Until the commune votes to censor you.

[Orostan]

I want to make it very clear that I do not like that policy. I can see, however, why the Soviet leadership thought it necessary at the time. NKVD agents did these operations very quickly, and it’s my opinion that these deaths in transit, while they certainly could have been avoided, were not due to deliberate policy but rather the quickness of the operations. I do not pretend like “ethnic cleansing” is a good thing but you’ve got to put yourself in Stalin’s boots here. There were hostile elements among these ethnic groups in high percentages. Deporting all of them was the easiest and most effective option. And again, it was not a good option.

"orostan: all the licking to fit the boot"

You know, I have my problems with Stalin.

I am a right-leaning centrist who thinks both sides have good ideas, and i think communism could work, but its losing my trust with it having no freedom of speech.

The USSR had freer speech than the USA in some regards.


https://espressostalinist.com/the-real- ... t-society/

This has some citations on it

https://www.docdroid.net/t9gG4jQ/thurst ... making.pdf

And here is a historian, who is by no means a communist, proving that meaningful criticism did exist in the Soviet Union and that workers had a say in their workplaces under Stalin.

[Korouse]

6. A massive amount of deaths in this process up to including half of the population is legitimate.[/b] Is it a "crime" for the NKVD to herd families into train cars and leave them to freeze and starve? Or to summarily execute people who refuse to leave their houses? Or to burn down barns with hundreds of people inside? Regrettably perhaps, but ultimately you seem to think Stalin did nothing wrong?

Where did this happen? Many people starved and died, but so did people who voluntarily evacuated from the frontline because there was a specific policy of capturing Soviet food supplies and destroying their farms. I've never heard of deliberate and hateful killings happening from all of the academic articles I've read, and I'm pretty sure "burn down barns (or a church) with hundreds of people inside" is a trope regularly ascribed to Nazi-like bad guys in films lol.

[Kubra]

There is not a period in soviet history where workers did not have a say in their immediate workplace. That was not necessarily a good thing, however.

[Orostan]

Sending groups whose members collaborated with the Germans in large numbers to Central Asia and giving them valuable economic assets to restart with is not ethnic cleansing.

I just said that moving people around for security reasons and removing them from the country are not exactly the same thing.


I never said I liked the deportations. The only thing I have said is that they were done for security reasons and that they were not crimes.

Actually let's dissect this because I've heard it a few times from people calling themselves Marxist Leninists. If you think this process was not nice but legitimate, and certainly not a crime, then what you are saying is that under a socialist state:

1. Judging another (or rather all people) for the crimes committed by members of their own ethnicity is legitimate. This reactionary assertion that you have is the real foundation of your argumentmust fall upon it's something that you would have more in common with amongst people on the fascist right then the genuine socialist left.

Following on, we realise your logic is by necessity selective. The fact that the Russian ethnicity was not deported to Siberia (despite hundreds of thousands of Russians fighting with the Nazis) says a lot. These ethnicities were deported as they were between the Germans (and to a more limited extent the Japanese) and the Russian heartland, it is then implied that 2. Persecution of ethnic minorities deemed troublesome in a way that privileges the master ethnicity is legitimate. Again something you have far more in common with the far right than the socialist left.

Once we establish these, we realise that as a punishment for the crimes of the minority of the minority 3. Ethnic cleansing and internal exile is legitimate. A little Babylonian in outlook, but once we establish the first two peversions of socialism, it stands to reason.

But the punishment does not cease here, we also realise that 4. State expropriation of the assets of workers and their families for crimes committed by members of their own ethnicity is legitimate. Rather than workers controlling the means of production, here is one master ethnicity expropriating the means of production of another as a form of collective punishment. I don't think that was included in the manifesto.

From here enters the ludicrous image of the state and Uncle Joe as merciful and reasonable because upon resettlement you seem to say that 5. The state partially compensating these workers and their families by "giving them valuable economic assets" is not only legitimate but generous. This is at most a partial redress for the injustices committed against these people particularly considering the final point.

Although presumably unfortunate, 6. A massive amount of deaths in this process up to including half of the population is legitimate. Is it a "crime" for the NKVD to herd families into train cars and leave them to freeze and starve? Or to summarily execute people who refuse to leave their houses? Or to burn down barns with hundreds of people inside? Regrettably perhaps, but ultimately you seem to think Stalin did nothing wrong?

1) This is not true. The Soviet Union did not have time to sort through every person of an ethnic group that collaborated with the Germans or the resources. The Soviet Union was not racist in the slightest here, as deporting ethnic groups was not done out of a dislike of those groups. Had that been true, the USSR would not have given economic assets to them and provided supplies.

2) The issue was high rates of collaboration. The millions of Soviet partisans and Tripp’s that fought for the Soviet Union versus the groups that fought against it make for a low rate among Russians. Even then, the Soviet government took measures after the war to make sure that Russian collaborators did not get away by keeping all former POWs in camps while they sorted through them, eventually releasing 80% of them.

3) Ethnic cleansing is not legitimate, and the reason why I dispute your idea that this was ethnic cleansing is because the deported were given supplies and houses in Central Asia to establish themselves. Had the USSR wanted to remove them permanently, they’d have exiled them from the country or something.

4) Yes, there was expropriation. Yes, the exiles were a bad thing, and I’d prefer it if they could have been avoided. However, for points described above, this does not constitute evidence of racism or evidence of a master ethnicity.

5) It is not generous. It is the bare minimum the Soviet state should have done and did.

6) I can find no evidence that they starved, only that they froze and had disease problems. I already said before that I don’t like either of these things and that I do not think it was deliberate.

Also, I don’t think the NKVD killed people. I can only find some statements that they wrote down the names of those they didn’t get to deport later. I can however find claims that the NKVD did burn people to death and kill prisoners at the start of WWII. It is not a coincidence these claims come from Nazi Germany.

And lastly, I will never unironically say “stalin did nothing wrong”. Stalin made mistakes, many of which I think could have been avoided had he done things differently.

[The Liberated Territories]

What does LWDT think about r/FULLCOMMUNISM's quarantine by reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/FULLCOMMUNISM/

I think it's quite amusing.

[Ardoki]

What does LWDT think about r/FULLCOMMUNISM's quarantine by reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/FULLCOMMUNISM/

I think it's quite amusing.

Surprised it took this long. Stalin was a murderous tyrant, who oppressed the people of the USSR (both capitalist and proletariat) in numerous ways (such as labour camps, genocides, social conservatism, etc.).

[Kubra]

What does LWDT think about r/FULLCOMMUNISM's quarantine by reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/FULLCOMMUNISM/

I think it's quite amusing.

As much as I dislike the lot, I can't say it's a move I'd prefer.
After all, this isn't simply a crackdown on tankies. It's on communism.

[Ardoki]

What does LWDT think about r/FULLCOMMUNISM's quarantine by reddit?

https://www.reddit.com/r/FULLCOMMUNISM/

I think it's quite amusing.

As much as I dislike the lot, I can't say it's a move I'd prefer.
After all, this isn't simply a crackdown on tankies. It's on communism.

That subreddit is full of tankies though. And even if it wasn't, tankies are still tolerated there.

[Torrocca]

In review of things following my initial concerns of concerted targetings of libertarian leftists following the fall of r/FULLCOMMUNISM, I think this stands to be proper policy.

[Kubra]

As much as I dislike the lot, I can't say it's a move I'd prefer.
After all, this isn't simply a crackdown on tankies. It's on communism.

That subreddit is full of tankies though. And even if it wasn't, tankies are still tolerated there.

that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.

[Torrocca]

That subreddit is full of tankies though. And even if it wasn't, tankies are still tolerated there.

that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.

On the other hand, apologia for atrocities and tyrants shouldn't ever be tolerated, regardless of what side they represent.

[Kubra]

that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.

On the other hand, apologia for atrocities and tyrants shouldn't ever be tolerated, regardless of what side they represent.

Well, yes, and they're kind of the worst for it.
I'm not super bummed about it, don't get me wrong, but I don't like the precedent, and I don't want to get too hard on the folks, because it's all us at some point. I don't think anyone can say they've never had shit politics.

[Dumb Ideologies]

In review of things following my initial concerns of concerted targetings of libertarian leftists following the fall of r/FULLCOMMUNISM, I think this stands to be proper policy.

Why not both?

[Torrocca]

On the other hand, apologia for atrocities and tyrants shouldn't ever be tolerated, regardless of what side they represent.

Well, yes, and they're kind of the worst for it.
I'm not super bummed about it, don't get me wrong, but I don't like the precedent, and I don't want to get too hard on the folks, because it's all us at some point. I don't think anyone can say they've never had shit politics.

Fair point in that regard. We definitely need to be steadfast and resistant to further censorship.

[Korouse]

Is getting quarantined even censorship? Can't you just click yes and go to the sub? Doesn't really seem like censorship to me, just seems like the reddit mods being sensitive to memes. That being said, they'd never do this to a right-wing sub the size of r/fullcommunism, so it is pretty much effectively hypocrisy. There'd be too much outrage from the right-wing.

[Eodor]

Is getting quarantined even censorship? Can't you just click yes and go to the sub? Doesn't really seem like censorship to me, just seems like the reddit mods being sensitive to memes.

You can't access it on mobiles either

[Torrocca]

Is getting quarantined even censorship? Can't you just click yes and go to the sub? Doesn't really seem like censorship to me, just seems like the reddit mods being sensitive to memes. That being said, they'd never do this to a right-wing sub the size of r/fullcommunism, so it is pretty much effectively hypocrisy. There'd be too much outrage from the right-wing.

They get blocked from r/all and r/popular (IDK if it's different if you're subscribed to them), which are the most frequently browsed parts of Reddit. In addition, you can't access them at all on mobile unless you're subscribed already.

It's effectively censorship unless people actively search for those places.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Is getting quarantined even censorship? Can't you just click yes and go to the sub? Doesn't really seem like censorship to me, just seems like the reddit mods being sensitive to memes. That being said, they'd never do this to a right-wing sub the size of r/fullcommunism, so it is pretty much effectively hypocrisy. There'd be too much outrage from the right-wing.

They get blocked from r/all and r/popular (IDK if it's different if you're subscribed to them), which are the most frequently browsed parts of Reddit. In addition, you can't access them at all on mobile unless you're subscribed already.

It's effectively censorship unless people actively search for those places.

Is your gripe more with the idea of subs full of "controversial" content only being made available to those who actively search for them or with the inconsistency?

[Aellex]

>when people are dissing on Uncle Joe
It's gulag time lads!

[Dumb Ideologies]

>when people are dissing on Uncle Joe
It's gulag time lads!

>implying it's ever not gulag time.

I found the liberal spy.

[Aellex]

>when people are dissing on Uncle Joe
It's gulag time lads!

>implying it's ever not gulag time.

I found the liberal spy.

N-no, t-that's no true!

Fuck! I mean, huh, cyka blyat!

[Ardoki]

That subreddit is full of tankies though. And even if it wasn't, tankies are still tolerated there.

that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.

Would you say the same about nazis? Obviously, they need to be educated as just ignoring or attacking them isn't going to change their views. But, they shouldn't be allowed to spread there hate online or offline.

[Dumb Ideologies]

that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.

Would you say the same about nazis? Obviously, they need to be educated as just ignoring or attacking them isn't going to change their views. But, they shouldn't be allowed to spread there hate online or offline.

So long as you leave the nice cuddly Strasserists alone.

[Kubra]

that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.

Would you say the same about nazis? Obviously, they need to be educated as just ignoring or attacking them isn't going to change their views. But, they shouldn't be allowed to spread there hate online or offline.

I think I've said on here before that I don't necessarily hate nazi's.
The difference, of course, is that tankies are ostensibly on our "side". They might not be the best of folks, they're often the worst of folks, but they're our folks.

To plagiarise somone much smarter than me, The people that any ostensible leftist is obligated to stand up for will not always be likable. Usually they won’t even be leftists. They will have different politics, values and cultures than you. They will overcook their steaks. They will enjoy, and perhaps even prefer, the later seasons of The Simpsons. They will make atrocious decisions in facial hair, which you will suspect they styled in a pretentious effort to look “more ethnic.” They will act in bad faith. They will have bad manners. They will be dull, they will be snobs. They will get on your fucking nerves.

but, well, they're us.