Until the commune votes to censor you.
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by Northern Davincia » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:58 pm
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Orostan » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:00 pm
Cekoviu wrote:Orostan wrote:I want to make it very clear that I do not like that policy. I can see, however, why the Soviet leadership thought it necessary at the time. NKVD agents did these operations very quickly, and it’s my opinion that these deaths in transit, while they certainly could have been avoided, were not due to deliberate policy but rather the quickness of the operations. I do not pretend like “ethnic cleansing” is a good thing but you’ve got to put yourself in Stalin’s boots here. There were hostile elements among these ethnic groups in high percentages. Deporting all of them was the easiest and most effective option. And again, it was not a good option.
"orostan: all the licking to fit the boot"
Ragero wrote:I am a right-leaning centrist who thinks both sides have good ideas, and i think communism could work, but its losing my trust with it having no freedom of speech.
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by Korouse » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:18 pm
Bakery Hill wrote:6. A massive amount of deaths in this process up to including half of the population is legitimate.[/b] Is it a "crime" for the NKVD to herd families into train cars and leave them to freeze and starve? Or to summarily execute people who refuse to leave their houses? Or to burn down barns with hundreds of people inside? Regrettably perhaps, but ultimately you seem to think Stalin did nothing wrong?
by Kubra » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:19 pm
by Orostan » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:37 pm
Bakery Hill wrote:Orostan wrote:Sending groups whose members collaborated with the Germans in large numbers to Central Asia and giving them valuable economic assets to restart with is not ethnic cleansing.Orostan wrote:I just said that moving people around for security reasons and removing them from the country are not exactly the same thing.
I never said I liked the deportations. The only thing I have said is that they were done for security reasons and that they were not crimes.
Actually let's dissect this because I've heard it a few times from people calling themselves Marxist Leninists. If you think this process was not nice but legitimate, and certainly not a crime, then what you are saying is that under a socialist state:
1. Judging another (or rather all people) for the crimes committed by members of their own ethnicity is legitimate. This reactionary assertion that you have is the real foundation of your argumentmust fall upon it's something that you would have more in common with amongst people on the fascist right then the genuine socialist left.
Following on, we realise your logic is by necessity selective. The fact that the Russian ethnicity was not deported to Siberia (despite hundreds of thousands of Russians fighting with the Nazis) says a lot. These ethnicities were deported as they were between the Germans (and to a more limited extent the Japanese) and the Russian heartland, it is then implied that 2. Persecution of ethnic minorities deemed troublesome in a way that privileges the master ethnicity is legitimate. Again something you have far more in common with the far right than the socialist left.
Once we establish these, we realise that as a punishment for the crimes of the minority of the minority 3. Ethnic cleansing and internal exile is legitimate. A little Babylonian in outlook, but once we establish the first two peversions of socialism, it stands to reason.
But the punishment does not cease here, we also realise that 4. State expropriation of the assets of workers and their families for crimes committed by members of their own ethnicity is legitimate. Rather than workers controlling the means of production, here is one master ethnicity expropriating the means of production of another as a form of collective punishment. I don't think that was included in the manifesto.
From here enters the ludicrous image of the state and Uncle Joe as merciful and reasonable because upon resettlement you seem to say that 5. The state partially compensating these workers and their families by "giving them valuable economic assets" is not only legitimate but generous. This is at most a partial redress for the injustices committed against these people particularly considering the final point.
Although presumably unfortunate, 6. A massive amount of deaths in this process up to including half of the population is legitimate. Is it a "crime" for the NKVD to herd families into train cars and leave them to freeze and starve? Or to summarily execute people who refuse to leave their houses? Or to burn down barns with hundreds of people inside? Regrettably perhaps, but ultimately you seem to think Stalin did nothing wrong?
“It is difficult for me to imagine what “personal liberty” is enjoyed by an unemployed hungry person. True freedom can only be where there is no exploitation and oppression of one person by another; where there is not unemployment, and where a person is not living in fear of losing his job, his home and his bread. Only in such a society personal and any other freedom can exist for real and not on paper.” -J. V. STALIN
Ernest Hemingway wrote:Anyone who loves freedom owes such a debt to the Red Army that it can never be repaid.
Napoleon Bonaparte wrote:“To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty.”
Cicero wrote:"In times of war, the laws fall silent"
by The Liberated Territories » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:46 pm
by Ardoki » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:13 pm
The Liberated Territories wrote:What does LWDT think about r/FULLCOMMUNISM's quarantine by reddit?
https://www.reddit.com/r/FULLCOMMUNISM/
I think it's quite amusing.
by Kubra » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:35 pm
As much as I dislike the lot, I can't say it's a move I'd prefer.The Liberated Territories wrote:What does LWDT think about r/FULLCOMMUNISM's quarantine by reddit?
https://www.reddit.com/r/FULLCOMMUNISM/
I think it's quite amusing.
by Ardoki » Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:37 pm
Kubra wrote:As much as I dislike the lot, I can't say it's a move I'd prefer.The Liberated Territories wrote:What does LWDT think about r/FULLCOMMUNISM's quarantine by reddit?
https://www.reddit.com/r/FULLCOMMUNISM/
I think it's quite amusing.
After all, this isn't simply a crackdown on tankies. It's on communism.
by Torrocca » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:07 am
by Kubra » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:17 am
that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
by Torrocca » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:20 am
Kubra wrote:that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.Ardoki wrote:That subreddit is full of tankies though. And even if it wasn't, tankies are still tolerated there.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.
by Kubra » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:35 am
Well, yes, and they're kind of the worst for it.Torrocca wrote:Kubra wrote: that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.
On the other hand, apologia for atrocities and tyrants shouldn't ever be tolerated, regardless of what side they represent.
by Dumb Ideologies » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:37 am
by Torrocca » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:00 am
Kubra wrote:Well, yes, and they're kind of the worst for it.Torrocca wrote:
On the other hand, apologia for atrocities and tyrants shouldn't ever be tolerated, regardless of what side they represent.
I'm not super bummed about it, don't get me wrong, but I don't like the precedent, and I don't want to get too hard on the folks, because it's all us at some point. I don't think anyone can say they've never had shit politics.
by Korouse » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:02 am
by Eodor » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:03 am
Korouse wrote:Is getting quarantined even censorship? Can't you just click yes and go to the sub? Doesn't really seem like censorship to me, just seems like the reddit mods being sensitive to memes.
by Torrocca » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:07 am
Korouse wrote:Is getting quarantined even censorship? Can't you just click yes and go to the sub? Doesn't really seem like censorship to me, just seems like the reddit mods being sensitive to memes. That being said, they'd never do this to a right-wing sub the size of r/fullcommunism, so it is pretty much effectively hypocrisy. There'd be too much outrage from the right-wing.
by Dumb Ideologies » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:40 am
Torrocca wrote:Korouse wrote:Is getting quarantined even censorship? Can't you just click yes and go to the sub? Doesn't really seem like censorship to me, just seems like the reddit mods being sensitive to memes. That being said, they'd never do this to a right-wing sub the size of r/fullcommunism, so it is pretty much effectively hypocrisy. There'd be too much outrage from the right-wing.
They get blocked from r/all and r/popular (IDK if it's different if you're subscribed to them), which are the most frequently browsed parts of Reddit. In addition, you can't access them at all on mobile unless you're subscribed already.
It's effectively censorship unless people actively search for those places.
by Aellex » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:42 am
by Dumb Ideologies » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:44 am
Aellex wrote:>when people are dissing on Uncle Joe
It's gulag time lads!
by Aellex » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:48 am
by Ardoki » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:22 am
Kubra wrote:that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.Ardoki wrote:That subreddit is full of tankies though. And even if it wasn't, tankies are still tolerated there.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.
by Dumb Ideologies » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:24 am
Ardoki wrote:Kubra wrote: that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.
Would you say the same about nazis? Obviously, they need to be educated as just ignoring or attacking them isn't going to change their views. But, they shouldn't be allowed to spread there hate online or offline.
by Kubra » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:51 am
I think I've said on here before that I don't necessarily hate nazi's.Ardoki wrote:Kubra wrote: that it was a tank sub is not up for dispute.
Still, they're folks who took to left wing politics one assumes out of honest sentiments, however heretical their rituals and scripture.
Would you say the same about nazis? Obviously, they need to be educated as just ignoring or attacking them isn't going to change their views. But, they shouldn't be allowed to spread there hate online or offline.
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