LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

We need to move past democracy, tbh. It's time to move on.

And what if the person running your post-democratic country was your mortal enemy?

[The Liberated Territories]

We need to move past democracy, tbh. It's time to move on.

And what if the person running your post-democratic country was your mortal enemy?

revolution time

[Korouse]

Seemed to pretty much be "ewww commies" considering they linked to what was essentially the Black Book in the subtext of the quarantine. :^)

Not really. Unless you want to argue that no European communist regime committed crimes.

European communist countries committed abuses just like their capitalist counterparts. That's the nature of the state and power.

[Korouse]

So, r/FULLCOMMUNISM has been quarantined on Reddit. Another case of neoliberal censorship strikes even the tankies.

>Blaming something that doesn't currently exert a significant influence most countries in the world after a tankie subreddit was quarantined

Wew laddie, really desperate to find someone to justify the decrease in quality of that sub, amirite? :^)

Reddit in general is low-quality unintentional shitposts from psued-intellects. If I was running one of these acclaimed "communist regimes" guilty of Hitlerian crimes, I'd ban it. But then I'd have to ban NationStates too, out of fairness to my people.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

revolution time

Perhaps, but Mardia has not responded.

[Uxupox]

No such thing. Just responded and described as to why the situation exists in the first place.

Which doesn't negate the fact that it's fucked up all the same. :^)

Based on your perceived values, sure. However it doesn't negate that it when a person creates an account they sign a contract (based on the ToS) as agreed. Similar thing happens in this same forum that we are communicating on.

[Orostan]

History is a dialectical process. Fascism, like all other ideas, fits into its own historical niche. What should be understood about fascism is who it's for and who it's not for.

It own historical niche is pure evil.

I'd say economic crises, but that works too.

>Blaming something that doesn't currently exert a significant influence most countries in the world after a tankie subreddit was quarantined

Wew laddie, really desperate to find someone to justify the decrease in quality of that sub, amirite? :^)

Reddit in general is low-quality unintentional shitposts from psued-intellects. If I was running one of these acclaimed "communist regimes" guilty of Hitlerian crimes, I'd ban it. But then I'd have to ban NationStates too, out of fairness to my people.

>implying

Stalin did not commit any crimes.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Stalin did not commit any crimes.

TIL ethnic cleansing and mass murders aren't crimes lol

[Korouse]

It own historical niche is pure evil.

I'd say economic crises, but that works too.

Reddit in general is low-quality unintentional shitposts from psued-intellects. If I was running one of these acclaimed "communist regimes" guilty of Hitlerian crimes, I'd ban it. But then I'd have to ban NationStates too, out of fairness to my people.

>implying

Stalin did not commit any crimes.

It's sarcasm. I'm what a lot of the people on the right-wing discussion thread would call a "Stalinist" or a "Tankie" even though I support the idea of a socialist multi-party democracy. He did do bad things though. No need to take extreme positions because your opposition is extreme in its ignorance.

[Korouse]

Stalin did not commit any crimes.

TIL ethnic cleansing and mass murders aren't crimes lol

There's literally been thousands of ethnic cleansings and mass murders done under the guise of the "law" - let's not mistake the law for actual justice.

[Orostan]

Stalin did not commit any crimes.

TIL ethnic cleansing and mass murders aren't crimes lol

TIL you don’t know what either of those things are.

Stalin did none of that, and the Soviet Union never committed Ethnic cleansing. The purges were Yezhov’s fault, as were the deaths from it.

I'd say economic crises, but that works too.


>implying

Stalin did not commit any crimes.

It's sarcasm. I'm what a lot of the people on the right-wing discussion thread would call a "Stalinist" or a "Tankie" even though I support the idea of a socialist multi-party democracy. He did do bad things though. No need to take extreme positions because your opposition is extreme in its ignorance.

Stalin made very serious mistakes, certainly. But calling anything he did a crime is too far. I favor multi party democracy, and if I’m not mistaken Stalin wanted the 1937 Soviet elections to be contested by multiple parties, but the politburo overruled him.

[Washington Resistance Army]

TIL ethnic cleansing and mass murders aren't crimes lol

TIL you don’t know what either of those things are.

Stalin did none of that, and the Soviet Union never committed Ethnic cleansing.

You know literally nothing about Soviet history lol

[Orostan]

TIL you don’t know what either of those things are.

Stalin did none of that, and the Soviet Union never committed Ethnic cleansing.

You know literally nothing about Soviet history lol

Name one single time that the Soviet Union tried to exterminate an ethnicity.

[Bakery Hill]

You know literally nothing about Soviet history lol

Name one single time that the Soviet Union tried to exterminate an ethnicity.

Ethnic cleansing is not genocide. Stalin committed numerous acts of ethnic cleansing.

[Orostan]

Name one single time that the Soviet Union tried to exterminate an ethnicity.

Ethnic cleansing is not genocide. Stalin committed numerous acts of ethnic cleansing.

Sending groups whose members collaborated with the Germans in large numbers to Central Asia and giving them valuable economic assets to restart with is not ethnic cleansing.

[Bakery Hill]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... and_Ingush
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... he_Balkars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... ean_Tatars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_an ... E2%80%9350)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... iet_Greeks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... rian_Finns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmyk_de ... ns_of_1943
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... viet_Union

[Bakery Hill]

Ethnic cleansing is not genocide. Stalin committed numerous acts of ethnic cleansing.

Sending groups whose members collaborated with the Germans in large numbers to Central Asia and giving them valuable economic assets to restart with is not ethnic cleansing.

This is probably one of the least socialist things I've heard from a socialist. I hope you never talk about something like Islamophobia again.

[Orostan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Chechens_and_Ingush
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... he_Balkars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... ean_Tatars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_an ... E2%80%9350)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... iet_Greeks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... rian_Finns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmyk_de ... ns_of_1943
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... viet_Union

I just said that moving people around for security reasons and removing them from the country are not exactly the same thing.

Sending groups whose members collaborated with the Germans in large numbers to Central Asia and giving them valuable economic assets to restart with is not ethnic cleansing.

This is probably one of the least socialist things I've heard from a socialist. I hope you never talk about something like Islamophobia again.

I never said I liked the deportations. The only thing I have said is that they were done for security reasons and that they were not crimes.

[Bakery Hill]

One example: Around 5,000 Kalmyks collaborated with the Nazis. Around 8,000 Kalmyks recieved medal and award from the Red Army for their service. Around 20,000 Kalmyks were killed by German troops. The solution of course is to round up all 100,000 of them and rip them from their home country, killing 50,000 on the way due to neglect. An ethnicity cannot be guilty of a crime. Ethnic cleansing is not a legitimate political option. If you think this is the case, you are not a socialist.

[Bakery Hill]

Ethnic cleansing is not genocide. Stalin committed numerous acts of ethnic cleansing.

Sending groups whose members collaborated with the Germans in large numbers to Central Asia and giving them valuable economic assets to restart with is not ethnic cleansing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Chechens_and_Ingush
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... he_Balkars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... ean_Tatars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_an ... E2%80%9350)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... iet_Greeks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... rian_Finns
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalmyk_de ... ns_of_1943
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportati ... viet_Union

I just said that moving people around for security reasons and removing them from the country are not exactly the same thing.

This is probably one of the least socialist things I've heard from a socialist. I hope you never talk about something like Islamophobia again.

I never said I liked the deportations. The only thing I have said is that they were done for security reasons and that they were not crimes.

Actually let's dissect this because I've heard it a few times from people calling themselves Marxist Leninists. If you think this process was not nice but legitimate, and certainly not a crime, then what you are saying is that under a socialist state:

1. Judging another (or rather all people) for the crimes committed by members of their own ethnicity is legitimate. This reactionary assertion that you have is the real foundation of your argumentmust fall upon it's something that you would have more in common with amongst people on the fascist right then the genuine socialist left.

Following on, we realise your logic is by necessity selective. The fact that the Russian ethnicity was not deported to Siberia (despite hundreds of thousands of Russians fighting with the Nazis) says a lot. These ethnicities were deported as they were between the Germans (and to a more limited extent the Japanese) and the Russian heartland, it is then implied that 2. Persecution of ethnic minorities deemed troublesome in a way that privileges the master ethnicity is legitimate. Again something you have far more in common with the far right than the socialist left.

Once we establish these, we realise that as a punishment for the crimes of the minority of the minority 3. Ethnic cleansing and internal exile is legitimate. A little Babylonian in outlook, but once we establish the first two peversions of socialism, it stands to reason.

But the punishment does not cease here, we also realise that 4. State expropriation of the assets of workers and their families for crimes committed by members of their own ethnicity is legitimate. Rather than workers controlling the means of production, here is one master ethnicity expropriating the means of production of another as a form of collective punishment. I don't think that was included in the manifesto.

From here enters the ludicrous image of the state and Uncle Joe as merciful and reasonable because upon resettlement you seem to say that 5. The state partially compensating these workers and their families by "giving them valuable economic assets" is not only legitimate but generous. This is at most a partial redress for the injustices committed against these people particularly considering the final point.

Although presumably unfortunate, 6. A massive amount of deaths in this process up to including half of the population is legitimate. Is it a "crime" for the NKVD to herd families into train cars and leave them to freeze and starve? Or to summarily execute people who refuse to leave their houses? Or to burn down barns with hundreds of people inside? Regrettably perhaps, but ultimately you seem to think Stalin did nothing wrong?

[Orostan]

One example: Around 5,000 Kalmyks collaborated with the Nazis. Around 8,000 Kalmyks recieved medal and award from the Red Army for their service. Around 20,000 Kalmyks were killed by German troops. The solution of course is to round up all 100,000 of them and rip them from their home country, killing 50,000 on the way due to neglect. An ethnicity cannot be guilty of a crime. Ethnic cleansing is not a legitimate political option. If you think this is the case, you are not a socialist.

I want to make it very clear that I do not like that policy. I can see, however, why the Soviet leadership thought it necessary at the time. NKVD agents did these operations very quickly, and it’s my opinion that these deaths in transit, while they certainly could have been avoided, were not due to deliberate policy but rather the quickness of the operations. I do not pretend like “ethnic cleansing” is a good thing but you’ve got to put yourself in Stalin’s boots here. There were hostile elements among these ethnic groups in high percentages. Deporting all of them was the easiest and most effective option. And again, it was not a good option.

[Cekoviu]

One example: Around 5,000 Kalmyks collaborated with the Nazis. Around 8,000 Kalmyks recieved medal and award from the Red Army for their service. Around 20,000 Kalmyks were killed by German troops. The solution of course is to round up all 100,000 of them and rip them from their home country, killing 50,000 on the way due to neglect. An ethnicity cannot be guilty of a crime. Ethnic cleansing is not a legitimate political option. If you think this is the case, you are not a socialist.

I want to make it very clear that I do not like that policy. I can see, however, why the Soviet leadership thought it necessary at the time. NKVD agents did these operations very quickly, and it’s my opinion that these deaths in transit, while they certainly could have been avoided, were not due to deliberate policy but rather the quickness of the operations. I do not pretend like “ethnic cleansing” is a good thing but you’ve got to put yourself in Stalin’s boots here. There were hostile elements among these ethnic groups in high percentages. Deporting all of them was the easiest and most effective option. And again, it was not a good option.

"orostan: all the licking to fit the boot"

[Ragero]

I am a right-leaning centrist who thinks both sides have good ideas, and i think communism could work, but its losing my trust with it having no freedom of speech.

[Cekoviu]

I am a right-leaning centrist who thinks both sides have good ideas, and i think communism could work, but its losing my trust with it having no freedom of speech.

communism would not work. in theory, anarchist communism would allow absolute freedom of speech.

[Great Minarchistan]

>Blaming something that doesn't currently exert a significant influence most countries in the world after a tankie subreddit was quarantined

Wew laddie, really desperate to find someone to justify the decrease in quality of that sub, amirite? :^)

Reddit in general is low-quality unintentional shitposts from psued-intellects. If I was running one of these acclaimed "communist regimes" guilty of Hitlerian crimes, I'd ban it. But then I'd have to ban NationStates too, out of fairness to my people.

I can support that actually, NSG is so low effort that its popularity on the internet (at least as evidenced by google trends) has fell now to about one tenth of what it was in 2004. Gotta be stealing the meme denomination of marxists and applying it to something that's actually proven aka the tendency for effort to fall :dab: