LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

[Greate Boston]

There hasn't been a death penalty or apostasy in most of The West in literal centuries, and those assholes had to get through the philosophical journey to secularism and laicite (mostly) all on their own. Islamic Countries already have the recipe for secularism. They don't have to invent the wheel again. The fact that they still execute people for insulting a prophet (literally. In some countries (i.e. Iran) insulting anyone even from the prophet's family is a crime that gets death penalty.) means there's something wrong with them, and it's not "colonialism" or what have you.

The Western world and the Islamic world are very different; and history cannot be explained well by imitation.

No, there is nothing “wrong with them,” as you say. However, cultures are different, and my country, the U.S., is certainly in no position (especially now) to negatively judge any other cultures.

Um, no. With all due respect, fuck that. If it's "Just their culture" to execute people for being gay, talking the wrong way about some pedophile who kicked the bucket 1400 years ago, or lashed for drinking, get their hand chopped off for stealing a penny, (among other genius punishments that I will not get into, even though I have the Penal Law on my desk right next to me), then that culture needs to die out and be replaced, completely and totally, by a superior culture (you know, one that doesn't do... any of that.). "It's their culture" is what people say when they want to justify allowing, condoning, and promoting Muslims murdering people. (because they're the only ones who're still, in this day and age, executing, or in any way punishing, people for their natural right to insult Muhammad.). We judge countries that make it a crime to curse "Dear Leader" (and don't say "that's their culture"), why's Islam any different?

And yeah, given how the American Government hasn't executed, or condoned the lynching of, any person for exercising their right to free speech, they absolutely are, and will be, in the perfect position to judge. Literally anyone who doesn't do that is in the perfect position to judge the Muslims for being that shitty. (BTW, this should go to the Islamic Discussion Thread)

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Daily reminder that Islamic countries are the only countries with the death penalty for apostasy.

There used to be death for apostasy in the Western world, too.

Key word used to.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

Um, no. With all due respect, fuck that.

That is not respectful.

If it's "Just their culture" to execute people for being gay, talking the wrong way about some pedophile who kicked the bucket 1400 years ago, or lashed for drinking, get their hand chopped off for stealing a penny, (among other genius punishments that I will not get into, even though I have the Penal Law on my desk right next to me), then that culture needs to die out and be replaced, completely and totally, by a superior culture (you know, one that doesn't do... any of that.). "It's their culture" is what people say when they want to justify allowing, condoning, and promoting Muslims murdering people. (because they're the only ones who're still, in this day and age, executing, or in any way punishing, people for their natural right to insult Muhammad.). We judge countries that make it a crime to curse "Dear Leader" (and don't say "that's their culture"), why's Islam any different?

My guess, from your comments, is that you are not a communist. However, you are dialoguing with one right now. All cultures are different, and the U.S. is far from being a cultural paragon. In fact, as a Marxist and a communist, I would argue that, as the most capitalistic country in world, the U.S. is, by definition, the world's most corrupt country. Many, though certainly not all, of the problems in the Islamic world can be explained by U.S. imperialism.

And yeah, given how the American Government hasn't executed, or condoned the lynching of, any person for exercising their right to free speech, they absolutely are, and will be, in the perfect position to judge. Literally anyone who doesn't do that is in the perfect position to judge the Muslims for being that shitty. (BTW, this should go to the Islamic Discussion Thread)

The Islamic discussion thread is definitely not the place for this discussion.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

Key word used to.

Countries are not on a time clock.

[Greate Boston]

Key word used to.

Countries are not on a time clock.

Sure they are. When someone discovers that "killing people for cursing some guy from 1400 years ago is not a good thing", everyone else better reach that discovery soon. It's been 200 (maybe more) years. Isn't it time for everyone to have reached that discovery by now?

Um, no. With all due respect, fuck that.

That is not respectful.

Yeah, if you think I have any respect for someone who justifies unlawful murder because "it's their culture", you've got a new one coming.

My guess, from your comments, is that you are not a communist. However, you are dialoguing with one right now. All cultures are different, and the U.S. is far from being a cultural paragon. In fact, as a Marxist and a communist, I would argue that, as the most capitalistic country in world, the U.S. is, by definition, the world's most corrupt country. Many, though certainly not all, of the problems in the Islamic world can be explained by U.S. imperialism.

Frankly, I think politeness has to leave through the door your "it's their culture" sentence came through. Screw being polite, for this once, I'll speak out exactly as I feel:
I don't give a crap what ideology you follow. I give even less crap what your ideology thinks about a culture. I am not a communist, and I feel as though "I am a communist" or "I think you aren't a communist" shouldn't really be an opening for an argument regarding disregard for the natural right of free speech.

Your definition of "corrupt" needs some work ... The US is not at all the "most" corrupt country in the world. Hell, it's not even on the top 25. And that corruption has jackshit to do with capitalism, but with its inherent authoritarianism and social problems (which are, again, irrelevant to capitalism and predate it by entire millennia). And no. Islam's problems can't be explained by "U.S. Imperialism". Maybe by British Imperialism (if you go as far back as a couple centuries, at least), but not at all with U.S. Imperialism. If anything, the U.S. is by default not an empire, nor imperialistic.
And that's literally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

The Islamic discussion thread is definitely not the place for this discussion

I mean, why shouldn't a discussion about Islam (and its backward culture, even more backward legal code, etc. etc.) not be appropriate for the Islamic Discussion thread?

[Eodor]

The Islamic discussion thread is definitely not the place for this discussion

I mean, why shouldn't a discussion about Islam (and its backward culture, even more backward legal code, etc. etc.) not be appropriate for the Islamic Discussion thread?

What they mean to say is the Islamic Discussion thread is for discussing Islam, not slamming it over everything ill that has ever happened in Islamic countries.

[Greate Boston]

I mean, why shouldn't a discussion about Islam (and its backward culture, even more backward legal code, etc. etc.) not be appropriate for the Islamic Discussion thread?

What they mean to say is the Islamic Discussion thread is for discussing Islam, not slamming it over everything ill that has ever happened in Islamic countries.

So... we shouldn't discuss, in the discussion thread about Islam, why it happens that every single country still using Islam as its state religion has an official punishment for "apostasy" of Islam, while apostasy of other religions is allowed in most of them?

[Kaggeceria]

Key word used to.

Countries are not on a time clock.

Sure they are. Nothing lasts forever. Time always runs out.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

Yeah, if you think I have any respect for someone who justifies unlawful murder because "it's their culture", you've got a new one coming.

And when did I ever justify murder? Answer: Never.

I don't give a crap what ideology you follow. I give even less crap what your ideology thinks about a culture. I am not a communist, and I feel as though "I am a communist" or "I think you aren't a communist" shouldn't really be an opening for an argument regarding disregard for the natural right of free speech.

I have been a communist since 1968, and being a communist is integral to who I am as a person. In any event, saying I am a communist is not an opening for an argument, as you say. It is simply an honest statement of my perspective. No one can possibly understand me without knowing I am a libertarian communist.

Your definition of "corrupt" needs some work ... The US is not at all the "most" corrupt country in the world. Hell, it's not even on the top 25. And that corruption has jackshit to do with capitalism, but with its inherent authoritarianism and social problems (which are, again, irrelevant to capitalism and predate it by entire millennia). And no. Islam's problems can't be explained by "U.S. Imperialism". Maybe by British Imperialism (if you go as far back as a couple centuries, at least), but not at all with U.S. Imperialism. If anything, the U.S. is by default not an empire, nor imperialistic.

See? You just demonstrated why I said I was a communist. All communists I know in my real life would agree that the U.S. is the most corrupt country in the world. Most other people would probably disagree.

And that's literally irrelevant to the topic at hand.

It is very relevant. Americans, like myself, have no business condemning other countries.

I mean, why shouldn't a discussion about Islam (and its backward culture, even more backward legal code, etc. etc.) not be appropriate for the Islamic Discussion thread?

Because I am familiar with that thread, and I respect the people, most of whom are Muslims, on it.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

What they mean to say is the Islamic Discussion thread is for discussing Islam, not slamming it over everything ill that has ever happened in Islamic countries.

Exactly.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

Sure they are. Nothing lasts forever. Time always runs out.

How does that relate to the context in which I made my comment?

[Kaggeceria]

It is very relevant. Americans, like myself, have no business condemning other countries.

I'll let Saudi Arabia know, then.

[Eodor]

What they mean to say is the Islamic Discussion thread is for discussing Islam, not slamming it over everything ill that has ever happened in Islamic countries.

So... we shouldn't discuss, in the discussion thread about Islam, why it happens that every single country still using Islam as its state religion has an official punishment for "apostasy" of Islam, while apostasy of other religions is allowed in most of them?

It's for discussing Islam, not Islamic Countries.

[Greate Boston]

And when did I ever justify murder? Answer: Never.

You literally said "it's their culture and none of our business" (I'm paraphrasing, of course) when confronted with "why do Muslims still execute people for blasphemy and apostasy".
That's literally justifying, condoning, and promoting murder.

I have been a communist since 1968, and being a communist is integral to who I am as a person. In any event, saying I am a communist is not an opening for an argument, as you say. It is simply an honest statement of my perspective. No one can possibly understand me without knowing I am a libertarian communist.

We can understand you perfectly fine. We probably will understand your points just fine even if you don't find it necessary to remind us you're a libertarian communist, or to remind us which ideologists you follow the most (Roy Bhaskar and Rosa Luxemburg. And I don't even frequent this thread) Hell, we'd probably engage your points even more if you didn't feel necessary to remind us of your academic background and shut us down when we call out your bullshit. And, again, your identity as a communist (and isn't it strange for your political ideology to define who you are as a person? because honestly, it isn't a good thing imho) shouldn't matter where freedom of speech is concerned.

See? You just demonstrated why I said I was a communist. All communists I know in my real life would agree that the U.S. is the most corrupt country in the world. Most other people would probably disagree.

If "all communists you know in your real life" agree that the US is the most corrupt country in the world, their definition of "The World" is probably limited just North America and Western Europe. There are at least 20 countries in Africa, and another 20 in Asia and Eastern Europe that are "ahead" of the US on the scale of "most corrupted country ever", and we're not checking the two Americas at all. Hell, almost every single country classified as an Authoritarian Regime in the Democracy Index is more corrupt than the US could ever hope to be.
I'd hope your communist acquaintances aren't that Occident-centric, because that'd be pretty pathetic for internationalists of their degree.

It is very relevant. Americans, like myself, have no business condemning other countries.

Holy fuck, Again with the voice silencing! No. Americans like yourself have every right to condemn other countries, cultures, and traditions. What kind of a pathetic world-view censors people based on their background?

Because I am familiar with that thread, and I respect the people, most of whom are Muslims, on it.

Yeah, I'm not going to dignify that with a response.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

I'll let Saudi Arabia know, then.

And who is supplying the Saudis with weapons and targeting information on Yemen? The U.S.

[Kaggeceria]

I'll let Saudi Arabia know, then.

And who is supplying the Saudis with weapons and targeting information on Yemen? The U.S.

*shrugs*

Doesn't mean regular US citizens can't criticize them.

[Greate Boston]

And who is supplying the Saudis with weapons and targeting information on Yemen? The U.S.

*shrugs*

Doesn't mean regular US citizens can't criticize them.

They're probably the ones who criticize them the most tbh.

[Kaggeceria]

*shrugs*

Doesn't mean regular US citizens can't criticize them.

They're probably the ones who criticize them the most tbh.

Yes. Pretty much everyone in this country outside of the government hates Saudi Arabia.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

You literally said "it's their culture and none of our business" (I'm paraphrasing, of course) when confronted with "why do Muslims still execute people for blasphemy and apostasy".
That's literally justifying, condoning, and promoting murder.

I never once justified anything. I said that the U.S. should mind its own business.

We can understand you perfectly fine. We probably will understand your points just fine even if you don't find it necessary to remind us you're a libertarian communist, or to remind us which ideologists you follow the most (Roy Bhaskar and Rosa Luxemburg. And I don't even frequent this thread) Hell, we'd probably engage your points even more if you didn't feel necessary to remind us of your academic background and shut us down when we call out your bullshit. And, again, your identity as a communist (and isn't it strange for your political ideology to define who you are as a person? because honestly, it isn't a good thing imho) shouldn't matter where freedom of speech is concerned.

I do not know what you do or do not understand about me. If you think I am spewing out BS, then why are you corresponding with me?

If "all communists you know in your real life" agree that the US is the most corrupt country in the world, their definition of "The World" is probably limited just North America and Western Europe. There are at least 20 countries in Africa, and another 20 in Asia and Eastern Europe that are "ahead" of the US on the scale of "most corrupted country ever", and we're not checking the two Americas at all. Hell, almost every single country classified as an Authoritarian Regime in the Democracy Index is more corrupt than the US could ever hope to be.
I'd hope your communist acquaintances aren't that Occident-centric, because that'd be pretty pathetic for internationalists of their degree.

No, the communists I know in my real life come from the U.S., Canada, and the UK.

Holy fuck, Again with the voice silencing! No. Americans like yourself have every right to condemn other countries, cultures, and traditions. What kind of a pathetic world-view censors people based on their background?

I am not stopping you from doing what you like. I am saying that I am unwilling to participate in it.

Yeah, I'm not going to dignify that with a response.

You are not going to dignify the fact that I respect people on the Islamic thread with a response? Huh?

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

Doesn't mean regular US citizens can't criticize them.

Again, I have no authority, or right, to stop you. I do, however, have my own free agency. Although I am not a Muslim, I love Islam.

[Kaggeceria]

Doesn't mean regular US citizens can't criticize them.

Again, I have no authority, or right, to stop you. I do, however, have my own free agency. Although I am not a Muslim, I love Islam.

Yes, I'm sure you do.

I'll make sure all Muslims know this so they can give you a pat on the head.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

Yes, I'm sure you do.

I'll make sure all Muslims know this so they can give you a pat on the head.

Is that what people say when they have nothing to say?

[Kaggeceria]

Yes, I'm sure you do.

I'll make sure all Muslims know this so they can give you a pat on the head.

Is that what people say when they have nothing to say?

No, it's what people say when they see someone who is searching for approval far too desperately.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

No, it's what people say when they see someone who is searching for approval far too desperately.

As a 62-year-old man, I am long past the age where I care about anyone's approval. Anyway, I am ending my part in the discussion with this posting. Feel free to post away as you like.

[Cekoviu]

No, it's what people say when they see someone who is searching for approval far too desperately.

As a 62-year-old man, I am long past the age where I care about anyone's approval. Anyway, I am ending my part in the discussion with this posting. Feel free to post away as you like.

somebody saying they don't care about others' approval is a near guarantee that they do.