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LWDT VI: Kropotkin's Bread Dead Redemption.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which Form of Leftism is The Best?

Left-Libertarianism
125
55%
Yes
66
29%
Left-Authoritarianism
37
16%
 
Total votes : 228

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27797
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:48 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Muh cross posting.

Corbyn seems to be edging toward market socialism and i've never been happier with him. He's adopted a sensible reform that i'd do in his position, demanding 10% of shares from companies instead be given to the workers, a solid incremental change. Rather than tax and spend that would inevitably end up in the pockets of the rich again because of how state expenditure under capitalism works, he's adopting an approach of direct wealth transfer. Should he get this pushed through it will form the basis for further expansions of a corporate syndicalism or market socialism model that could see us radically transform our economy, incentivize productivity, and transfer ownership to the workers.

Labour finance spokesman John McDonnell will say that every company with more than 250 employees would have to create an “Inclusive Ownership Fund”, transferring at least 1 percent of their shares into the fund every year, up to a maximum of 10 percent.

“The shares will be held and managed collectively by the workers. The shareholding will give workers the same rights as other shareholders to have a say over the direction of their company, and dividend payments will be made directly to the workers from the fund.”


I just became even more fanatically pro-corbyn.

Corporate Syndicalism-
It keeps free markets and all that.
Theres a method of doing it that I prefer, which is basically that anyone who works for a corporation gets 1 share of stock to vote with. No non-workers may vote with stock.
Wages would be abolished, instead, every worker gets a share of the corporate profits determined by the collective.
(The current progenitor is the Mondragon corporation, which uses:

Unskilled labour - 1 share
Skilled Labour - 3 shares
Management - 5 shares
Upper Management 7 shares)

System.
thus, upper management will only EVER receive 7 times the pay of the lowest paid work, and that pay is ENTIRELY dependent on how well the corporation functions.
If profits go up, everyones wages go up. If profit goes down, everyones wages go down.

This model makes firing people (for reasons other than incompetence or bad behaviour) obsolete. We no longer have to fire people because times are tough. People will willingly leave when their pay goes down. (Too many workers sharing not enough profit. Those willing to leave will do so. If noone wants to leave, then there is no problem.)

Imagine it as basically a form of socialist-corporation.
It means you can entirely scrap things like workplace-health acts, since the workers of the company are going to vote for healthier working conditions anyway.
And if they dont vote for them, who are we to say otherwise? They know the risks best.
The importance of the vote is that it allows workers to fire incompetent managers by voting them out, which can be vital. Ofcourse, it is NEVER in their interest to fire an actually competent manager. Doing so would hurt their incomes.
It also means that every worker has a vested interest in the corporation doing well. If it does well, they get more cash.
It minimizes laziness. Every worker knows they get a share of the profit, so why laze?


I've been saying it for fucking years, and finally a major party is on board with something similar. Our attitudes are, for once, in alignment.


>more capitalism

Gee wilkers Ostro, I almost thought I'd've mistaken you for a pro-worker's rights anti-capitalist for a second there considering all your supposed hostility toward oppression.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:51 am

Torrocca wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Muh cross posting.

Corbyn seems to be edging toward market socialism and i've never been happier with him. He's adopted a sensible reform that i'd do in his position, demanding 10% of shares from companies instead be given to the workers, a solid incremental change. Rather than tax and spend that would inevitably end up in the pockets of the rich again because of how state expenditure under capitalism works, he's adopting an approach of direct wealth transfer. Should he get this pushed through it will form the basis for further expansions of a corporate syndicalism or market socialism model that could see us radically transform our economy, incentivize productivity, and transfer ownership to the workers.



I just became even more fanatically pro-corbyn.



I've been saying it for fucking years, and finally a major party is on board with something similar. Our attitudes are, for once, in alignment.


>more capitalism

Gee wilkers Ostro, I almost thought I'd've mistaken you for a pro-worker's rights anti-capitalist for a second there considering all your supposed hostility toward oppression.


This is less capitalism. It's like, 10% less capitalism. Literally. That's why i'm supportive of it.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Nekokuni
Envoy
 
Posts: 258
Founded: Aug 17, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Nekokuni » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:52 am

Orostan wrote:
Nekokuni wrote:
Is that why Uncle Joe knowingly replaced him with a serial rapist who buried the bodies of his victims in his wife's rose garden?

None of that ever happened, and the Politburo wanted Beria. Stalin wanted to put in Malenkov but the politburo decided against it.


It takes some hard anime plot logic to kill some teenagers, plant them in Beria's garden and basement, wait some 50 odd years for them to finally be found, and then reveal to the world what Soviet archives had already confirmed: that Beria was a sick son of a bitch. People, including Stalin, were terrified at the prospect of Beria showing an interest in their female relatives, for good reason.
IC: National Syndicalist Catgirl Thearchy

Udajin of Heian Japan
Lesbian Catgirl, Kokugakusha, Wannabe Poet
Slaanesh did nothing wrong

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27797
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:53 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>more capitalism

Gee wilkers Ostro, I almost thought I'd've mistaken you for a pro-worker's rights anti-capitalist for a second there considering all your supposed hostility toward oppression.


This is less capitalism. It's like, 10% less capitalism. Literally. That's why i'm supportive of it.


>10% less
>not 100% less

Bandaging a festering, gaping wound doesn't disinfect or stitch up said festering, gaping wound.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:54 am

Torrocca wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
This is less capitalism. It's like, 10% less capitalism. Literally. That's why i'm supportive of it.


>10% less
>not 100% less

Bandaging a festering, gaping wound doesn't disinfect or stitch up said festering, gaping wound.


You act like a war can be won without resources.

Seizing 10% of the economy for the workers is a stepping stone to seizing the rest. It also represents a fundamental rejection of capitalist essentialism and changes the conversation to "How much of the economy should the workers control?".
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Nekokuni
Envoy
 
Posts: 258
Founded: Aug 17, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Nekokuni » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:54 am

Torrocca wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
This is less capitalism. It's like, 10% less capitalism. Literally. That's why i'm supportive of it.


>10% less
>not 100% less

Bandaging a festering, gaping wound doesn't disinfect or stitch up said festering, gaping wound.


Sh, shhh, corporatism is real Prussian British socialism. Real Marxist internationalist socialists are the real capitalists!
IC: National Syndicalist Catgirl Thearchy

Udajin of Heian Japan
Lesbian Catgirl, Kokugakusha, Wannabe Poet
Slaanesh did nothing wrong

User avatar
Eodor
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1781
Founded: Oct 26, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Eodor » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:55 am

Nekokuni wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>10% less
>not 100% less

Bandaging a festering, gaping wound doesn't disinfect or stitch up said festering, gaping wound.


Sh, shhh, corporatism is real Prussian British socialism. Real Marxist internationalist socialists are the real capitalists!

Prussian Socialism sounds fantastic I'm not going to lie
JUSTICE FOR SOUTH REINKALISTAN
JANNIES DONE /OURGUY/ WRONG
DOWN WITH THE HETMOB

User avatar
Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27797
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:56 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>10% less
>not 100% less

Bandaging a festering, gaping wound doesn't disinfect or stitch up said festering, gaping wound.


You act like a war can be won without resources.

Seizing 10% of the economy for the workers is a stepping stone to seizing the rest.


>20 million more people spend the year dying from preventable causes that were caused by Capitalism
>"At least we cooperated with the corporations!!1!"

Kek

Nekokuni wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>10% less
>not 100% less

Bandaging a festering, gaping wound doesn't disinfect or stitch up said festering, gaping wound.


Sh, shhh, corporatism is real Prussian British socialism. Real Marxist internationalist socialists are the real capitalists!


Anarchists are the real CEOs!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:56 am

Nekokuni wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>10% less
>not 100% less

Bandaging a festering, gaping wound doesn't disinfect or stitch up said festering, gaping wound.


Sh, shhh, corporatism is real Prussian British socialism. Real Marxist internationalist socialists are the real capitalists!


Provided the company is owned by the workers I see no problem with mutually agreed and consensual wage disparities and hierarchy. I also think market socialism is superior to state socialism and more effective, and see no reason why non-employees should hold sway over a company or its profits.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12370
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:57 am

Torrocca wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
This is less capitalism. It's like, 10% less capitalism. Literally. That's why i'm supportive of it.


>10% less
>not 100% less

Bandaging a festering, gaping wound doesn't disinfect or stitch up said festering, gaping wound.

Baby steps.
Also, if capitalism is a "festering, gaping wound", then communism doesn't "disinfect" or "stitch up" the metaphorical wound; it covers it in raw sewage and claims to have improved the situation :^)
Arachno-anarchism || NO GODS NO MASTERS || Free NSG Odreria

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:59 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>10% less
>not 100% less

Bandaging a festering, gaping wound doesn't disinfect or stitch up said festering, gaping wound.

Baby steps.
Also, if capitalism is a "festering, gaping wound", then communism doesn't "disinfect" or "stitch up" the metaphorical wound; it covers it in raw sewage and claims to have improved the situation :^)


It's also just good sense in terms of stability and so on. Radically changing the entire economy overnight is going to be a clusterfuck. It's similar to democracy. You can't just waltz in and impose it on a population, it has to be patiently grown and the culture of utilizing it fostered and promoted steadily over time.

Giving the workers control over increasing sections of the shares will mean they aren't suddenly told tommorow they have to learn everything about running the company and all that stuff. They will first participate, learn, and so on. Pretending the workers have some inherent understanding of how to manage a corporation is ridiculous.

It also allows us to change tracks if it turns out to go horrible and try different approaches.

Patient, meticulous, and managed growth of a market socialist economy and construction of a socialist society, rather than the revolutionary marxist crap.

Oh no my Prussianism is showing.

https://i.redd.it/y9y18n252zg01.png
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12370
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:03 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Baby steps.
Also, if capitalism is a "festering, gaping wound", then communism doesn't "disinfect" or "stitch up" the metaphorical wound; it covers it in raw sewage and claims to have improved the situation :^)


It's also just good sense in terms of stability and so on. Radically changing the entire economy overnight is going to be a clusterfuck. It's similar to democracy. You can't just waltz in and impose it on a population, it has to be patiently grown and the culture of utilizing it fostered and promoted steadily over time.

Giving the workers control over increasing sections of the shares will mean they aren't suddenly told tommorow they have to learn everything about running the company and all that stuff. They will first participate, learn, and so on. Pretending the workers have some inherent understanding of how to manage a corporation is ridiculous.

bbut our books said that running a busyness is easy peasy and business owners are inhuman automatons fueled by human suffering :(
All in all tho, yeah, I have to agree. Making people know what they're doing before they have to do more of it is just common sense.
Arachno-anarchism || NO GODS NO MASTERS || Free NSG Odreria

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:05 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It's also just good sense in terms of stability and so on. Radically changing the entire economy overnight is going to be a clusterfuck. It's similar to democracy. You can't just waltz in and impose it on a population, it has to be patiently grown and the culture of utilizing it fostered and promoted steadily over time.

Giving the workers control over increasing sections of the shares will mean they aren't suddenly told tommorow they have to learn everything about running the company and all that stuff. They will first participate, learn, and so on. Pretending the workers have some inherent understanding of how to manage a corporation is ridiculous.

bbut our books said that running a busyness is easy peasy and business owners are inhuman automatons fueled by human suffering :(
All in all tho, yeah, I have to agree. Making people know what they're doing before they have to do more of it is just common sense.


What do you think of the overall proposal and the economic model underlying it? You're right wing, right? But is that pro-capitalist, or pro-market right wing?
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

User avatar
Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12370
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:11 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:bbut our books said that running a busyness is easy peasy and business owners are inhuman automatons fueled by human suffering :(
All in all tho, yeah, I have to agree. Making people know what they're doing before they have to do more of it is just common sense.


What do you think of the overall proposal and the economic model underlying it? You're right wing, right? But is that pro-capitalist, or pro-market right wing?

I'll have to look more into it before I pass judgement.
As for my type of right-wingness, it's... both, really. I'm not, however, fully averse to some types of public ownership nor to some market restrictions.
Arachno-anarchism || NO GODS NO MASTERS || Free NSG Odreria

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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27797
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:11 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Baby steps.
Also, if capitalism is a "festering, gaping wound", then communism doesn't "disinfect" or "stitch up" the metaphorical wound; it covers it in raw sewage and claims to have improved the situation :^)


It's also just good sense in terms of stability and so on. Radically changing the entire economy overnight is going to be a clusterfuck. It's similar to democracy. You can't just waltz in and impose it on a population, it has to be patiently grown and the culture of utilizing it fostered and promoted steadily over time.

Giving the workers control over increasing sections of the shares will mean they aren't suddenly told tommorow they have to learn everything about running the company and all that stuff. They will first participate, learn, and so on. Pretending the workers have some inherent understanding of how to manage a corporation is ridiculous.

It also allows us to change tracks if it turns out to go horrible and try different approaches.

Patient, meticulous, and managed growth of a market socialist economy and construction of a socialist society, rather than the revolutionary marxist crap.

Oh no my Prussianism is showing.


>how to make the workers complacent so it's easier to erode their rights 101

America's already proven why class cooperation and convincing corporations to grant some concessions is an absolutely stupid idea :^)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:14 am

Torrocca wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
It's also just good sense in terms of stability and so on. Radically changing the entire economy overnight is going to be a clusterfuck. It's similar to democracy. You can't just waltz in and impose it on a population, it has to be patiently grown and the culture of utilizing it fostered and promoted steadily over time.

Giving the workers control over increasing sections of the shares will mean they aren't suddenly told tommorow they have to learn everything about running the company and all that stuff. They will first participate, learn, and so on. Pretending the workers have some inherent understanding of how to manage a corporation is ridiculous.

It also allows us to change tracks if it turns out to go horrible and try different approaches.

Patient, meticulous, and managed growth of a market socialist economy and construction of a socialist society, rather than the revolutionary marxist crap.

Oh no my Prussianism is showing.


>how to make the workers complacent so it's easier to erode their rights 101

America's already proven why class cooperation and convincing corporations to grant some concessions is an absolutely stupid idea :^)


When was worker ownership over the means of production ever advanced incrementally?
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34903
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:26 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>how to make the workers complacent so it's easier to erode their rights 101

America's already proven why class cooperation and convincing corporations to grant some concessions is an absolutely stupid idea :^)


When was worker ownership over the means of production ever advanced incrementally?


Every time I buy company stock.
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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27797
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:29 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
>how to make the workers complacent so it's easier to erode their rights 101

America's already proven why class cooperation and convincing corporations to grant some concessions is an absolutely stupid idea :^)


When was worker ownership over the means of production ever advanced incrementally?


Did you miss the part about Unions and the like?

The modern erosion of worker rights is because the working class grew complacent in America after the unions won some victories.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Greate Boston
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 176
Founded: Sep 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Greate Boston » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:31 am

Torrocca wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
When was worker ownership over the means of production ever advanced incrementally?


Did you miss the part about Unions and the like?

The modern erosion of worker rights is because the working class grew complacent in America after the unions won some victories.
It was more along the lines of the US Government got enough people brainwashed against "leftism" that even healthcare became "socialism" for everyone, rather than workers getting complacent.
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Silver Commonwealth
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Silver Commonwealth » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:33 am

Alright guys, I am going to dwell more into the depths of NSG, in order to search for gems, which could fit for worldbuilding material.
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✉ ʀᴀɴᴅᴏᴍ ✉
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_[][][][][][][L'''][Σ][][~][][][]_
̿̿ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿'̿'\̵͇̿̿\(▀_(▀_(▀_(▀_(▀_(▀_(▀_▀)_▀)_▀)_▀)_▀)_▀)_▀)/̵͇̿̿/’̿’̿ ̿ ̿̿ ̿̿ ̿̿

This nation doesn't represent my views

IRL views: not much different from 4 years ago (socdem)

Tom being a control freak + pathological distrust of private enterprises = this nation

''I thought that I was a conservative. Turns out, I was just sentimental at times''

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:37 am

Telconi wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
When was worker ownership over the means of production ever advanced incrementally?


Every time I buy company stock.


As a system of economics, rather than an individual decision.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Democratic Communist Federation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5297
Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 am

Kowani wrote:Daily reminder that Islamic countries are the only countries with the death penalty for apostasy.


There used to be death for apostasy in the Western world, too. The Islamic world is going through a transition or a struggle between traditionalists, on the one hand, and modernists, on the other. It is similar to the struggle that the West experienced during the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment.

In other words, before we judge the Islamic world too harshly, perhaps Westerners should look at our own history.
Ššālōm ʿălēyəḵẹm, Mōšẹh ʾẠhărōn hạ•Lēwiy bẹn Hẹʿrəšẹʿl (Hebrew/Yiddish, מֹשֶׁה אַהֲרֹן הַלֵוִי בֶּן הֶערְשֶׁעל)
third campismLibertarian Marxist Social Fictioncritical realismAntifaDialectical metaRealism ☝️ The
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You are welcome as an embassy of Antifa Dialectical metaRealism. Our ♥️ ḏik°r
(Arabic, ذِكْر. remembrance): Yā Bahāˁ ʾal•⫯Ab°haỳ, wa•yā ʿAliyy ʾal•⫯Aʿ°laỳ! (Arabic, !يَا بَهَاء لأَبْهَى ، وَيَا عَلِيّ الأَعْلَى)
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Greate Boston
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 176
Founded: Sep 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Greate Boston » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:09 am

Democratic Communist Federation wrote:
Kowani wrote:Daily reminder that Islamic countries are the only countries with the death penalty for apostasy.


There used to be death for apostasy in the Western world, too. The Islamic world is going through a transition or a struggle between traditionalists, on the one hand, and modernists, on the other. It is similar to the struggle that the West experienced during the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment.

In other words, before we judge the Islamic world too harshly, perhaps Westerners should look at our own history.
There hasn't been a death penalty or apostasy in most of The West in literal centuries, and those assholes had to get through the philosophical journey to secularism and laicite (mostly) all on their own. Islamic Countries already have the recipe for secularism. They don't have to invent the wheel again. The fact that they still execute people for insulting a prophet (literally. In some countries (i.e. Iran) insulting anyone even from the prophet's family is a crime that gets death penalty.) means there's something wrong with them, and it's not "colonialism" or what have you.
Commonwealth of Boston
Mere months after the War for the Commonwealth, a barely held-together General Hart tries to keep the delicate balance in the Commonwealth. Retcon Underway
Now Playing: The Mechanist Unmasked!
Radio Freedom: Ceasefire broken between Bunker Hill and Zeller's Army. Raiders under Judge Zeller's command began attacking caravans leaving the largest unwalled settlement in the Commonwealth. | Somerville place robots defeated, but more robots voicing their loyalty to the unknown Mechanist attack small settlements in the southwest. | The Schism in the Brotherhood: Who are the sides, and which one should the Minutemen throw their lot with?

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The Multiversal Communist Collective
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1461
Founded: Nov 30, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Multiversal Communist Collective » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:14 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Corbyn seems to be edging toward market socialism and i've never been happier with him.


That is a further example of why, as a Leftist, I have learned not to trust leaders who are progressives.

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The Multiversal Communist Collective
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1461
Founded: Nov 30, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Multiversal Communist Collective » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:48 am

Greate Boston wrote:There hasn't been a death penalty or apostasy in most of The West in literal centuries, and those assholes had to get through the philosophical journey to secularism and laicite (mostly) all on their own. Islamic Countries already have the recipe for secularism. They don't have to invent the wheel again. The fact that they still execute people for insulting a prophet (literally. In some countries (i.e. Iran) insulting anyone even from the prophet's family is a crime that gets death penalty.) means there's something wrong with them, and it's not "colonialism" or what have you.


The Western world and the Islamic world are very different; and history cannot be explained well by imitation.

No, there is nothing “wrong with them,” as you say. However, cultures are different, and my country, the U.S., is certainly in no position (especially now) to negatively judge any other cultures.

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