Is "pro-choice" a misleading term?

[Katganistan]

Ok let's just agree to hate reach other by default then

Why are you so scared of "pro-life" ideas facing criticism? Why do you only approve of political debates in which all sides agree?

You can't be wrong if everyone agrees with you.

Or, you can all by wrong but you don't have to accept it. *shrug*

[Katganistan]

I get the feeling they're reading too much into your statements, as they have done previously with others.

I think it's time to lock this post. Clearly nobody is shifting positions, so it classifies as resolved. My opinion.

Weren't you told specifically to stop doing that? God, it's like a broken record. Nobody is locking the thread because you say it's time.

[Quantipapa]

I think it's time to lock this post. Clearly nobody is shifting positions, so it classifies as resolved. My opinion.

Weren't you told specifically to stop doing that? God, it's like a broken record. Nobody is locking the thread because you say it's time.

I've learned my lesson. I'll stop asking. Sorry.

[Latin Islands]

It's plainly obvious that "pro-life" is a vague platitude, but even as someone who supports abortion access, I've always felt comparably uncomfortable with the phrase "pro-choice," which seems more often to be off the hook. The whole damn point of anti-abortion laws is to treat a fetus as a person. In that context, is abortion not imposing the choice on the fetus? Does that not mean the real crux of the issue is more fetal personhood vs. lack thereof than "choice?"

And does this make opposition to abortion "anti-choice?" Suppose some individual advocate of abortion criminalization supports more choice in what food to eat, what to do in one's personal time, than some individual advocate of abortion rights. Who of the two would be more "pro-choice?"

Pro-choice is not a misleading term in my opinion. Said choice is that of the pregnant woman, being the one capable to make the ultimate decision. The mother has the right to her own body.

Opposition to abortion is anti-choice because when it happens, someone loses an option on what to do with the fetus.

Assuming the choice is associated with pregnancy or conception, the individual advocate of abortion rights would be more pro-choice of course.

[Quantipapa]

It's plainly obvious that "pro-life" is a vague platitude, but even as someone who supports abortion access, I've always felt comparably uncomfortable with the phrase "pro-choice," which seems more often to be off the hook. The whole damn point of anti-abortion laws is to treat a fetus as a person. In that context, is abortion not imposing the choice on the fetus? Does that not mean the real crux of the issue is more fetal personhood vs. lack thereof than "choice?"

And does this make opposition to abortion "anti-choice?" Suppose some individual advocate of abortion criminalization supports more choice in what food to eat, what to do in one's personal time, than some individual advocate of abortion rights. Who of the two would be more "pro-choice?"

Pro-choice is not a misleading term in my opinion. Said choice is that of the pregnant woman, being the one capable to make the ultimate decision. The mother has the right to her own body.

Opposition to abortion is anti-choice because when it happens, someone loses an option on what to do with the fetus.

Assuming the choice is associated with pregnancy or conception, the individual advocate of abortion rights would be more pro-choice of course.

Generally ok, but don't resort to saying "Opposition to abortion is anti-choice" because it can be easily flipped - people who support abortion is anti-life. We can't be selective over how we bandy the "anti" label around just to score a cheap soundbite.

[Shazbotdom]

Pro-choice is not a misleading term in my opinion. Said choice is that of the pregnant woman, being the one capable to make the ultimate decision. The mother has the right to her own body.

Opposition to abortion is anti-choice because when it happens, someone loses an option on what to do with the fetus.

Assuming the choice is associated with pregnancy or conception, the individual advocate of abortion rights would be more pro-choice of course.

Generally ok, but don't resort to saying "Opposition to abortion is anti-choice" because it can be easily flipped - people who support abortion is anti-life. We can't be selective over how we bandy the "anti" label around just to score a cheap soundbite.

Pro-choice is not anti-life. I don't know where you got that from.

Pro-choice is having the option for women to either safely abort a fetus or allow a woman to Bring the child to term. Allowing her to have the choice and what to do in this situation.

Pro-life is more along the lines of prober because once that fetus is born they don't care what happens to it. If they did they would not cut the healthcare budget or the education budget as they have been doing every time that they are in power.

[Quantipapa]

I was telling the previous poster not to resort to antics like this. Please read carefully.

[Shazbotdom]

I was telling the previous poster not to resort to antics like this. Please read carefully.

I did read it.

I was calling you out on your ridiculously failed logic.

[The Liberated Territories]

No more misleading than "pro-life" is IMO

[Quantipapa]

I was telling the previous poster not to resort to antics like this. Please read carefully.

I did read it.

I was calling you out on your ridiculously failed logic.

And pro-life does not equal anti choice

[Quantipapa]

Basically don't be what you people accuse me of and refuse the pro-life people to be anti-choice. Geez.

[Dogmeat]

Basically don't be what you people accuse me of and refuse the pro-life people to be anti-choice. Geez.

Look, I don't want to insult you if English is not your first language, but... your English is nearly incomprehensible. You should practice a bit more before participating on an English language forum.

That said, I think I've worked out what you mean. But if you're in favor of policies that limit choice, you can fairly be described as anti-choice. Just like if you're against slavery you are, in a sense, anti-free market. The ability of people to construe what you think is a positive in a negative way is just something you're just going to have to live with.

[Quantipapa]

Basically don't be what you people accuse me of and refuse the pro-life people to be anti-choice. Geez.

Look, I don't want to insult you if English is not your first language, but... your English is nearly incomprehensible. You should practice a bit more before participating on an English language forum.

That said, I think I've worked out what you mean. But if you're in favor of policies that limit choice, you can fairly be described as anti-choice. Just like if you're against slavery you are, in a sense, anti-free market. The ability of people to construe what you think is a positive in a negative way is just something you're just going to have to live with.

By that same logic if you're not in favour of protecting life even in the womb, you're anti-life. You're gonna Yadda Yadda Yadda that it's not true/fair how pro-choice people don't like abortion Yadda Yadda Yadda. Yeah sure I can accept all of that, but don't be the same reductionist peep that you accuse me of

[Dogmeat]

Look, I don't want to insult you if English is not your first language, but... your English is nearly incomprehensible. You should practice a bit more before participating on an English language forum.

That said, I think I've worked out what you mean. But if you're in favor of policies that limit choice, you can fairly be described as anti-choice. Just like if you're against slavery you are, in a sense, anti-free market. The ability of people to construe what you think is a positive in a negative way is just something you're just going to have to live with.

By that same logic if you're not in favour of protecting life even in the womb, you're anti-life. You're gonna Yadda Yadda Yadda that it's not true/fair how pro-choice people don't like abortion Yadda Yadda Yadda. Yeah sure I can accept all of that, but don't be the same reductionist peep that you accuse me of

Because they're not the same thing. Pro-choice people are generally in favor of people living, and so cannot be fairly described as anti-life. If you're pro-live, then you genuinely don't think people should have a choice, and so can be fairly described as anti-choice.

EDIT: not that most people do describe pro-life people as anti-choice. You seem to be getting very worked up about semantics.

[Quantipapa]

By that same logic if you're not in favour of protecting life even in the womb, you're anti-life. You're gonna Yadda Yadda Yadda that it's not true/fair how pro-choice people don't like abortion Yadda Yadda Yadda. Yeah sure I can accept all of that, but don't be the same reductionist peep that you accuse me of

Because they're not the same thing. Pro-choice people are generally in favor of people living, and so cannot be fairly described as anti-life. If you're pro-live, then you genuinely don't think people should have a choice, and so can be fairly described as anti-choice.

EDIT: not that most people do describe pro-life people as anti-choice. You seem to be getting very worked up about semantics.

This topic is on semantics.

[Quantipapa]

By that same logic if you're not in favour of protecting life even in the womb, you're anti-life. You're gonna Yadda Yadda Yadda that it's not true/fair how pro-choice people don't like abortion Yadda Yadda Yadda. Yeah sure I can accept all of that, but don't be the same reductionist peep that you accuse me of

Because they're not the same thing. Pro-choice people are generally in favor of people living, and so cannot be fairly described as anti-life. If you're pro-live, then you genuinely don't think people should have a choice, and so can be fairly described as anti-choice.

EDIT: not that most people do describe pro-life people as anti-choice. You seem to be getting very worked up about semantics.

In fairness I got worked up because some dude above said exactly that - anti-choice. But none of you called him out on it. Double standards.

[Shazbotdom]

Because they're not the same thing. Pro-choice people are generally in favor of people living, and so cannot be fairly described as anti-life. If you're pro-live, then you genuinely don't think people should have a choice, and so can be fairly described as anti-choice.

EDIT: not that most people do describe pro-life people as anti-choice. You seem to be getting very worked up about semantics.

In fairness I got worked up because some dude above said exactly that - anti-choice. But none of you called him out on it. Double standards.

Pro-life is all about restricting the freedoms of a born person from doing what they wish with their body. And after the fact, the politicians who claim that give no fucks about what happens after that foetus is born, not calling if they are born into poverty, an abusive household, or born with medical conditions or addicted to drugs. They are not pro-life, they are pro-birth.

You just don't seem to understand that.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Both sides define themselves by terms that make their position as bellyfeel doubleplusgood as they're able. Most people aren't instinctively opposed to life, and choice is foundational to the American liberal capitalist national myth. It's only "misleading" if you expect political movements to choose terms that don't appeal to commonly held values, which is basically demanding that they be bad at politics, isn't it?

[Quantipapa]

Both sides define themselves by terms that make their position as bellyfeel doubleplusgood as they're able. Most people aren't instinctively opposed to life, and choice is foundational to the American liberal capitalist national myth. It's only "misleading" if you expect political movements to choose terms that don't appeal to commonly held values, which is basically demanding that they be bad at politics, isn't it?

Very well said.

[Great Nortend]

In fairness I got worked up because some dude above said exactly that - anti-choice. But none of you called him out on it. Double standards.

Pro-life is all about restricting the freedoms of a born person from doing what they wish with their body. And after the fact, the politicians who claim that give no fucks about what happens after that foetus is born, not calling if they are born into poverty, an abusive household, or born with medical conditions or addicted to drugs. They are not pro-life, they are pro-birth.

You just don't seem to understand that.

I'd say you don't seem to quite understand that 'pro-life' doesn't mean 'pro-a good life', it means 'pro-having a chance at life at all'.

[The New California Republic]

Basically don't be what you people accuse me of and refuse the pro-life people to be anti-choice. Geez.

---

In fairness I got worked up because some dude above said exactly that - anti-choice. But none of you called him out on it. Double standards.

No double standards at all. They didn't go on a rant about calling pro-choice people "anti-life". You, on the other hand, very much did.

[Estanglia]

In fairness I got worked up because some dude above said exactly that - anti-choice. But none of you called him out on it. Double standards.

That's because they're right. The pro-life position is that women shouldn't have the choice of abortion, hence anti-choice.
The pro-choice position, however, is not that abortion is good, in fact many oppose it but think it should be legal, so calling pro-choicers anti-life or pro-abortion is incorrect, which is why we called you out on it.
If anti-choice was incorrect, we would be calling out whoever said it.

[Great Nortend]

In fairness I got worked up because some dude above said exactly that - anti-choice. But none of you called him out on it. Double standards.

That's because they're right. The pro-life position is that women shouldn't have the choice of abortion, hence anti-choice.
The pro-choice position, however, is not that abortion is good, in fact many oppose it but think it should be legal, so calling pro-choicers anti-life or pro-abortion is incorrect, which is why we called you out on it.

Then can we call pro-choice people 'anti-giving all foetuses a chance to life'?

[The New California Republic]

That's because they're right. The pro-life position is that women shouldn't have the choice of abortion, hence anti-choice.
The pro-choice position, however, is not that abortion is good, in fact many oppose it but think it should be legal, so calling pro-choicers anti-life or pro-abortion is incorrect, which is why we called you out on it.

Then can we call pro-choice people 'anti-giving all foetuses a chance to life'?

No, because pro-choice people don't want to kill all fetuses.

[Great Nortend]

Then can we call pro-choice people 'anti-giving all foetuses a chance to life'?

No, because pro-choice people don't want to kill all fetuses.

But they're still against giving every one a chance to life as they accept some should be killed?