NationStates

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:00 am**

Liriena wrote:[…] rather than just pointing the finger at "the other side" as if left-wingers being shitty made Franco good.

As far as I understand it, the argument is not that Franco was good, but rather that he was better.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:01 am**

Aellex wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Desacrate. I think that's the term you're looking for.

Bad habit of mine than to just anglicise a French term and hopes it works instead of just googling the translation. :/

On Franco. The issue is not black and white. For some in Spain he was a dictator. For others, he was a beloved leader. So you have divided opinions in the country on what should be done here.

If it were up to me, give the remains to his family. But there are people back home who genuinely feel he should remain where he is. I don't like it anymore than many here, but it's not solely up to me and my feelings.

Tbh, I just dislike the idea of breaking monuments for the deads or digging up a corpse, no matter who they're dedicated to or how awful the person was.
Franco-ism is essentially dead in Spain from what I've heard so I don't think there is much point to do that anyway.

If it's just to exhume him, I don't think the mausoleum would get very damaged.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:08 am**

FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
Liriena wrote:[…] rather than just pointing the finger at "the other side" as if left-wingers being shitty made Franco good.

As far as I understand it, the argument is not that Franco was good, but rather that he was better.

Which is a dubious argument at best, and mostly just ideology speaking.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:13 am**

Liriena wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
As far as I understand it, the argument is not that Franco was good, but rather that he was better.

Which is a dubious argument at best, and mostly just ideology speaking.

Liri, I don't like Franco anymore than you do, but the issue about his remains and where they're at is not as black and white as we'd like it to be. In Spain, it really will depend who you ask. Many people, like my family, were abused by his regime. However, many others actually saw benefit during his tenure.

Seeing as yes, where he is at is contentious for many, and the current gov't's idea is not exactly very good either, a good solution would be to give the remains to his family and they can, in turn, bury him somewhere else, be that Madrid or the moon.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:14 am**

Liriena wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
As far as I understand it, the argument is not that Franco was good, but rather that he was better.

Which is a dubious argument at best, and mostly just ideology speaking.

Perhaps. As far as I’m concerned both sides were as bad as one another, morally that is (which was worse in practice is another question entirely). Which side I’d choose, in the end, would be determined by my political and religious leanings.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:22 am**

Liriena wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
As far as I understand it, the argument is not that Franco was good, but rather that he was better.

Which is a dubious argument at best, and mostly just ideology speaking.

Not at all. I have, coincidentally, been recently reading about the subject for the last few weeks (as well as reading on the subject prior), and Franco seems much better than the Anarchists and the Left.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:24 am**

Minzerland II wrote:
Liriena wrote:Which is a dubious argument at best, and mostly just ideology speaking.

Not at all. I have, coincidentally, been recently reading about the subject for the last few weeks (as well as reading on the subject prior), and Franco seems much better than the Anarchists and the Left.

Let's agree to disagree. :^)

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:25 am**

Truthfully, the issue about Franco's remains isn't even that important. The rest of the possible and the very real problems are what matter.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:26 am**

Liriena wrote:
Minzerland II wrote:Not at all. I have, coincidentally, been recently reading about the subject for the last few weeks (as well as reading on the subject prior), and Franco seems much better than the Anarchists and the Left.

Let's agree to disagree. :^)

Alright.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:29 am**

Liriena wrote:
FelrikTheDeleted wrote:
hahahaha... jesus christ... hahahahah...

I guess Stalin was a fascist as well./s

Fine. We was a far right tyrant but not specifically a fascist. What a massive fucking improvement.

Then you agree then that dictator =/= fascist. Stalin was a Communist dictator. MUSSOLINI was an ACTUAL fascist. And so on. Honestly, this just falls under that trap that most people use fascist as a term to define ideologies that they know are bad, but otherwise can’t define. Because “bad” is more than enough, rather than actually studying what the word means and who actually pushed this particular ideology.

As Nana said, the problem is not black-and-white, and her family has lived through this. I suggest you perhaps give her input a little contemplation.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:32 am**

Anyone who saves a country from the wrath of Marxism and Zionism will be granted a million blessings from his people and the almighty.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:34 am**

Liriena wrote:"But what about the commies????"

^ a totally legit and serious argument that doesn't at all deflect from the actual person in question and his own legacy.

Say what you will about Saiwania, but at least he's directly defending right-wing tyranny, rather than just pointing the finger at "the other side" as if left-wingers being shitty made Franco good.

Not really no. I think the Republicans deserve their monuments just as much and would oppose an attempt to dig up their graves just as much as I do this one, despite all the dislike I've for the murderous bunch that were the Anars.

I just think the rest of the grave should be respected.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:48 am**

Fazos wrote:Anyone who saves a country from the wrath of Marxism and Zionism will be granted a million blessings from his people and the almighty.

Lmao

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:53 am**

Saiwania wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:The sitting Conservative government has literally been ousted by a new socialist president.

It doesn't look like socialism is working in terms of reducing that. Spain needs to go the route of Nazi Germany (minus the mass murder). I'm sure with Spain's own autobahn like projects or with a massive military buildup and rearmament that their unemployment will fall to 5% or less very quickly.

Well it's had like three months, little hasty no?

Conservatism failed for two years since the last election.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:11 am**

Indo-Malaysia wrote:As much of a dick that Franco was, he should remain in his mausoleum. To move him would be an insult to history.

Why would someone be so twisted as to want to disturb the dead?

Franco is offensive to all Spaniards and he desirved to be removed. Spain is today a democracy and has open its border to all people of color. This is what Franco was against.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:16 am**

Liriena wrote:
Oil exporting People wrote:
Franco was inherently a fuck up long term, even if he gets points for utterly bashing the hell out of the Communists during the Civil War. The far better option would've been José Antonio Primo de Rivera taking power, and then aligning with the Carlists, who remained a vigorous and strong Rightist force until Franco betrayed yet more fellow Rightists.

That's a bit like saying "if only Hitler had died early and somebody more competent had taken over..."

Welp, it didn't happen. In real life, that is how the historical political movement turned out. That is how all of its forces, all of its actions, concluded.

When I think of the Soviet Union, I don't think "maybe it would have been an utopia if Trotsky had been in Stalin's place". I think "well, the Soviet attempt sucked major balls; we might need to rethink this whole Leninism thing if there's a next time".

When discussing the trajectory of a nation, reflecting upon its past to find clues as to where the current and expected future issues emerged should always be done.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:18 am**

Soviet-mongol wrote:
Indo-Malaysia wrote:As much of a dick that Franco was, he should remain in his mausoleum. To move him would be an insult to history.

Why would someone be so twisted as to want to disturb the dead?

Franco is offensive to all Spaniards and he desirved to be removed. Spain is today a democracy and has open its border to all people of color. This is what Franco was against.

And?

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:20 am**

Oil exporting People wrote:
Soviet-mongol wrote:Franco is offensive to all Spaniards and he desirved to be removed. Spain is today a democracy and has open its border to all people of color. This is what Franco was against.

And?

The spanish government has every moral obligation to remove the remains of Franco from that masouleum.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:23 am**

Soviet-mongol wrote:
Oil exporting People wrote:
And?

The spanish government has every moral obligation to remove the remains of Franco from that masouleum.

Which is why the failure of the 1982 Coup Attempt is so tragic.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:24 am**

Soviet-mongol wrote:Franco is offensive to all Spaniards and he deserved to be removed. Spain is today a democracy and has open its border to all people of color. This is what Franco was against.

Booooo! This is exactly the sort of immigration policies I hate.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:26 am**

Saiwania wrote:
Soviet-mongol wrote:Franco is offensive to all Spaniards and he deserved to be removed. Spain is today a democracy and has open its border to all people of color. This is what Franco was against.

Booooo! This is exactly the sort of immigration policies I hate.

Why? It will help the balance to keep the planet. Since Africa is having to many people and the West has problem with birthrates. The only solution to keep the enviromental balance is for the west to absorb the surplus people from Africa.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:26 am**

Oil exporting People wrote:
Soviet-mongol wrote:The spanish government has every moral obligation to remove the remains of Franco from that masouleum.

Which is why the failure of the 1982 Coup Attempt is so tragic.

It is not. Spain today is not a shithole unlike back in the days.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:29 am**

Soviet-mongol wrote:
Oil exporting People wrote:
Which is why the failure of the 1982 Coup Attempt is so tragic.

It is not. Spain today is not a shithole unlike back in the days.

It is not, hence why it's been placed in the category of PIGS and why it's currently going to hell in a handbasket. In the 1960s, meanwhile, despite having received no Marshal Aid, was a top performer in economic growth rates and some economists were even starting to suggest Spain could engender a return of Fascism by demonstrating it being economically successful.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:30 am**

Soviet-mongol wrote:
Saiwania wrote:
Booooo! This is exactly the sort of immigration policies I hate.

Why? It will help the balance to keep the planet. Since Africa is having to many people and the West has problem with birthrates. The only solution to keep the enviromental balance is for the west to absorb the surplus people from Africa.

Alternatively, seal the borders and let Malthus do his work.

Posted: **Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:34 am**

Soviet-mongol wrote:
Saiwania wrote:
Booooo! This is exactly the sort of immigration policies I hate.

Why? It will help the balance to keep the planet. Since Africa is having to many people and the West has problem with birthrates. The only solution to keep the enviromental balance is for the west to absorb the surplus people from Africa.

Hell to the fucking no

NationStates

Spain - Possible problems on the Horizon