Muslim sues for "discrimination" for not accommodating her.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Katganistan, this post is in reply to your telegram to me about this topic. In case you forgot, here's a refresher:
You said:

Please be advised that it is the men in the most sexist part of that culture that insist women be covered to avoid tempting them, and who stone women to death or imprison them for the crime of being raped.

This is not to say "All Muslim Men" or even "all men", but the "she's a sexist" nonsense is a fairy tale. This is imposed on Muslim women by men, not a "men are evil so I will not show them my body!" kind of thing.

I sent you a telegram saying:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=448497&p=34513357#p34513357
It's not something imposed on Muslims women. This is an actual Islamic belief held by some Muslims.

To which you replied:

When it is enforced by Sharia, stoning, and honor killing, it is imposed. Thanks.

And here is my new reply to this:
1: this point can be found in my post above this one.
2: Idk what you mean by the stoning and honor killing stuff, but yes, if this shaking hands thing is forbidden in Shari'ah, then it might be imposed. Just like any other form of law that is "imposed" on society. Was there supposed to be a negative connotation here?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Also, Katganistan, why'd you block me from sending you telegrams?

[Yohannes]

You are pulling a good one here. She didn't shake their hands back. She ignored their professional (and possibly friendly) handshakes. Because her religion or pretty Holy Book said so... she treats other people differently... because her religion said so.

The Holy Qur'an doesn't say anything about shaking hands, that's in the aHadith. And even then, I haven't come across the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) telling us not to shake hands with the opposite sex.

Well that is even better then! Perhaps the person you should have directed that piece of information to is not me, but the lady herself: https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/16/muslim-w ... 0-7849508/

"told the male interviewer she could not shake his hand. She instead greeted him by placing a hand over her heart, as is common among Muslims. I believe in God, which is very rare in Sweden…and I should be able to do that and be accepted as long as I’m not hurting anyone. I respect that. That’s why I don’t have any physical contact with men or with women

So I guess, after all, she could have chosen to shake his hand. But she didn't, and she used her religion as justification for her decision to not shake hands with her interviewers. So maybe you should tell the lady - and others like her - that it is in fact not against her religion to shake the hands of other people politely? That she should not discriminate against other people because of what (she thinks) her religion said? That she should follow the way the locals do things?

Note that I don't hold bias against Islam related things. If in Saudi Arabia, I would respect Saudi Arabia's way of doing things (no question about that). Or when in southeast Asian mosques, I wouldn't do stupid shit like some silly western tourists out there have done (disrespecting the place and things) - I would definitely take my shoes or sandals off and try to dress modestly, and follow the way other people there are doing things. Same as Sweden also. You follow their ways (the locals' ways) of doing things

I can see that the discussion is dying off here (not much else to discuss really), so I want to ask the following question: if according to you (Kubumba Tribe), "Holy Qur'an doesn't say anything about shaking hands, that's in the aHadith. And even then, I haven't come across the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) telling us not to shake..."

Then why did she (the lady) refuse to shake the interviewer's hand and said that she did it because of her religion?

refusing to shake the male interviewer’s hand

So are you telling me that she was not telling the truth all along? That she misled the media?

Edit:

-snip-

From the moment you started the whole thing off with using emotive words like "stupid" and "You didn't read the facts of the case" (instead of trying to address my actual point that you happen to disagree with), I knew there would be no middle ground reached between us. I would suggest for you (and Sailor Astraea) to think twice before you post emotive stuff and try to brute-force your opinions/views onto others next time - I don't know, maybe you'll find that people will actually agree with your point of view at the end of it all. Thank you.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

The Holy Qur'an doesn't say anything about shaking hands, that's in the aHadith. And even then, I haven't come across the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) telling us not to shake hands with the opposite sex.

Well that is even better then! Perhaps the person you should have directed that piece of information to is not me, but the lady herself: https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/16/muslim-w ... 0-7849508/

"told the male interviewer she could not shake his hand. She instead greeted him by placing a hand over her heart, as is common among Muslims. I believe in God, which is very rare in Sweden…and I should be able to do that and be accepted as long as I’m not hurting anyone. I respect that. That’s why I don’t have any physical contact with men or with women

I can't, I don't have her contacts.

So I guess, after all, she could have chosen to shake his hand. But she didn't, and she used her religion as justification for her decision to not shake hands with her interviewers. So maybe you should tell the lady - and others like her - that it is in fact not against her religion to shake the hands of other people politely?

I never said that. Also, someone doing something politely doesn't automatically make it ok.

That she should not discriminate against other people because of what (she thinks) her religion said?

She wasn't discriminating.

That she should follow the way the locals do things?

Depends.

Note that I don't hold bias against Islam related things. If in Saudi Arabia, I would respect Saudi Arabia's way of doing things (no question about that). Or when in southeast Asian mosques, I wouldn't do stupid shit like some silly western tourists out there have done (disrespecting the place and things) - I would definitely take my shoes or sandals off and try to dress modestly, and follow the way other people there are doing things. Same as Sweden also. You follow their ways (the locals' ways) of doing things

This whole paragraph also can be replied to with "depends".

I can see that the discussion is dying off here (not much else to discuss really), so I want to ask the following question: if according to you (Kubumba Tribe), "Holy Qur'an doesn't say anything about shaking hands, that's in the aHadith. And even then, I haven't come across the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) telling us not to shake..."

It's not according to me, it's a fact.

Then why did she (the lady) refuse to shake the interviewer's hand and said that she did it because of her religion?

Because some Muslims believe shaking hands with the opposite sex is haram.

refusing to shake the male interviewer’s hand

So are you telling me that she was not telling the truth all along? That she misled the media?

[Galloism]

Also, Katganistan, why'd you block me from sending you telegrams?

I believe Kat blocks almost everyone from sending Telegrams.

[Camicon]

-snip-

From the moment you started the whole thing off with using emotive words like "stupid" and "You didn't read the facts of the case" (instead of trying to address my actual point that you happen to disagree with), I knew there would be no middle ground reached between us. I would suggest for you (and Sailor Astraea) to think twice before you post emotive stuff and try to brute-force your opinions/views onto others next time - I don't know, maybe you'll find that people will actually agree with your point of view at the end of it all. Thank you.

My purpose is pointing out that your opinion was lacking facts was not to convince you but to convince the people reading this thread, that might not read the OP, who think that what you said had any merit. I don't care whether or not you agree with me. I care whether or not the peanut gallery takes you seriously.

And if you can't take a little pointed criticism perhaps you should reconsider spending your time on what is effectively a debate forum. Doubly so if my pointing out that your opinion lacks factual basis blinds you to my later pointing out precisely how you are wrong.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Also, Katganistan, why'd you block me from sending you telegrams?

I believe Kat blocks almost everyone from sending Telegrams.

[Ethel mermania]

Also, Katganistan, why'd you block me from sending you telegrams?

I believe Kat blocks almost everyone from sending Telegrams.

kinky

[Yohannes]

And if you can't take a little pointed criticism perhaps you should reconsider spending your time on what is effectively a debate forum

Lol

Proper debate forum =/= attempting to derail the thread by using emotive words such as "stupid" (to try to get an equally emotive response from the other person) and brute-forcing your opinions onto others. If you try what you have done here/your tactic (so far) in any higher education debating forum/discussion the moderator would have told you off already the moment you posted that "stupid" stuff, instead of telling me why you disagree with my position (and attacking my position sentence by sentence from the get go)

viewtopic.php?p=34523494#p34523494

As you can see from there, I've accepted Ifreann's point of view (and willingly accept that I was perhaps wrong, at least as regards "there are laws against discriminating based on religion")

So as you can see - criticism? I am cool with that. So I don't really understand what it is that you are talking about when you say that I can't take any criticism lol

The moment I saw you and Sailor Astraea's posts to my (frankly respectfully written) first post, that's when I knew there would be no/very low standard of debating in this thread. You only have yourself to thank for it.

I never said that. Also, someone doing something politely doesn't automatically make it ok.

Okay, so you believe that what she did was wrong then?

She wasn't discriminating.

I see

That she should follow the way the locals do things?

Depends.

I see

Note that I don't hold bias against Islam related things. If in Saudi Arabia, I would respect Saudi Arabia's way of doing things (no question about that). Or when in southeast Asian mosques, I wouldn't do stupid shit like some silly western tourists out there have done (disrespecting the place and things) - I would definitely take my shoes or sandals off and try to dress modestly, and follow the way other people there are doing things. Same as Sweden also. You follow their ways (the locals' ways) of doing things

This whole paragraph also can be replied to with "depends".

I see

I can see that the discussion is dying off here (not much else to discuss really), so I want to ask the following question: if according to you (Kubumba Tribe), "Holy Qur'an doesn't say anything about shaking hands, that's in the aHadith. And even then, I haven't come across the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) telling us not to shake..."

It's not according to me, it's a fact.

I see

Then why did she (the lady) refuse to shake the interviewer's hand and said that she did it because of her religion?

Because some Muslims believe shaking hands with the opposite sex is haram.

So if the Holy Qur'an doesn't say anything about shaking hands that is wrong, and Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) did not say anything about not shaking other people's hands, then why do some Muslims believe that shaking hands with the opposite sex is haram?

From my admittedly limited experience of Islam related things (I would welcome your rebuttal), "Acts that are haram are typically prohibited in the religious texts of the Quran and the Sunnah category of haram is the highest status of prohibition."(lazy Wikipedia), so I guess that information from Wikipedia is not true/is a lie then?

So are you telling me that she was not telling the truth all along? That she misled the media?

She did tell the media (you can see from the website itself) that she could not shake the interviewer's hand because of her religion (someone please correct me here if I am wrong). But then apparently (you have said) the Holy Qur'an doesn't say anything about shaking hands with the opposite sex, nor do the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) himself. So by your definition she was lying then? She could, in fact, shake the hand of the interviewer. There's nothing in the Holy Qur'an and the message of Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) which would prohibit her from shaking the hand of the interviewer?

But then you told me that it's because some Muslims believe that it is haram to shake the hand of the opposite sex. So which one is it?

Say, if I am a Muslim woman, and you are, say, someone that I look up to in the Muslim community, would you look at me disapprovingly if I shake the hand of my future boss (a man)? Am I allowed to do that, or am I not?

Thank you for your time El-Amin Caliphate

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Okay, so you believe that what she did was wrong then?

I don't have the knowledge to make that judgement.

So if the Holy Qur'an doesn't say anything about shaking hands that is wrong, and Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) did not say anything about not shaking other people's hands

I never said that he didn't say anything about it, I said that I haven't read/found anything about it.

[Camicon]

And if you can't take a little pointed criticism perhaps you should reconsider spending your time on what is effectively a debate forum

*snip*

Your opinion lacked facts, so I called it stupid. If you have a problem with this then perhaps don't espouse opinions that cannot be backed with facts.

[Yohannes]

Okay, so you believe that what she did was wrong then?

I don't have the knowledge to make that judgement.

Yup I can totally understand that. It's just that I am not a Muslim, and my opinion as regards Islam (I believe) would be worth less than yours (as you are actually a Muslim). That was why I would love to hear your opinion on the subject

So if the Holy Qur'an doesn't say anything about shaking hands that is wrong, and Prophet Muhammad (SAWS) did not say anything about not shaking other people's hands

I never said that he didn't say anything about it, I said that I haven't read/found anything about it.

I see.

Quote, if you faced a critical situation where you have to shake hands with a man, some scholars allow that as long as there is no temptation (fitnah), unquote.

As a Muslim, would you agree or disagree with the above statement by Dr. Muhammad Salama PhD (Islamic Studies in English, Associate Professor at the Faculty of Islamic Sciences al-Madinah International University (Mediu))?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I don't have the knowledge to make that judgement.

Yup I can totally understand that. It's just that I am not a Muslim, and my opinion as regards Islam (I believe) would be worth less than yours (as you are actually a Muslim). That was why I would love to hear your opinion on the subject

Sorry, but I rarely give opinions when it comes to Al-Islam.

I see.

Quote, if you faced a critical situation where you have to shake hands with a man, some scholars allow that as long as there is no temptation (fitnah), unquote.

As a Muslim, would you agree or disagree with the above statement by Dr. Muhammad Salama PhD (Islamic Studies in English, Associate Professor at the Faculty of Islamic Sciences al-Madinah International University (Mediu))?

Yeah I can agree to this.

[Yohannes]

Yup I can totally understand that. It's just that I am not a Muslim, and my opinion as regards Islam (I believe) would be worth less than yours (as you are actually a Muslim). That was why I would love to hear your opinion on the subject

Sorry, but I rarely give opinions when it comes to Al-Islam.

Yup, I understand. My apologies

I see.

Quote, if you faced a critical situation where you have to shake hands with a man, some scholars allow that as long as there is no temptation (fitnah), unquote.

As a Muslim, would you agree or disagree with the above statement by Dr. Muhammad Salama PhD (Islamic Studies in English, Associate Professor at the Faculty of Islamic Sciences al-Madinah International University (Mediu))?

Yeah I can agree to this.

And therefore the lady was misleading the media, or the media misquoted her (either way, it's just sensationalist and quite dishonest). Case closed.

Thank you for your time El-Amin Caliphate

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yup, I understand. My apologies

Nah, you're ok

And therefore the lady was misleading the media, or the media misquoted her (either way, it's just sensationalist and quite dishonest).

She wasn't doing any of that.

[Myrensis]

OK I'm confused. Where is the misandry here?

Evidently conservative Islam is actually a front for feminist conspiracies to degrade and oppress men.

I know, I was pretty shocked as well.

In any case, if the company actually said that germaphobia or autism would have been an acceptable reason, but religion is not...I'm not really seeing how they have a case. Either handshaking is absolutely critical or it isn't.

Is "I can't shake your hand because I think you're a disgusting living fountain of disease and filth" more gentle to clients than "My religious beliefs don't allow me to shake hands."?

[Cedoria]

If she wants to work, she fucking can. Who the fuck are you to decide what this woman wants to do? If she wants to work, she can. If she doesn't, she doesn't have to.

I'm not deciding anything buddy, I'm just going by what Allah (swt) and his prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said. Are you gonna tell me you're a better authority on anything than the creator of the universe himself and the Prophet (pbuh)?

Let's stick with the assumption that people have the right to decide, within reason, how to live their lives without being dictated to by dead Iron Age warlords hmm?

[Kubumba Tribe]

The Quran and the Prophet (pbuh) literally said that a woman's place is in the home.

No it doesn't and no he didn't.

I'm not deciding anything buddy, I'm just going by what Allah (swt) and his prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said. Are you gonna tell me you're a better authority on anything than the creator of the universe himself and the Prophet (pbuh)?

Since when were you Muslim?
>Looks through related posts by you in this thread
Why the heck are you saying this stuff? If you want to say stuff about Al-Islam, verify it with a knowledeable Muslim 1st, sheesh. Like for real, were you just larping like these people were saying?

Let's stick with the assumption that people have the right to decide, within reason, how to live their lives without being dictated to by dead Iron Age warlords hmm?

Agreed.

[Trumptonium1]

Religion makes no difference here, shaking hands is simply common decency in the business world. Doesn't matter if you like Allah or don't like germs.

[Mardla]

"I want your money! If you refuse to give it to me, why, I'll sue!"

Heh.

[Vassenor]

"I want your money! If you refuse to give it to me, why, I'll sue!"

Heh.

Because kicking someone out of a job interview because of their religion is just them being a gold digger?

[Mardla]

"I want your money! If you refuse to give it to me, why, I'll sue!"

Heh.

Because kicking someone out of a job interview because of their religion is just them being a gold digger?

If they threaten to sue you for not giving them money, yeah

[Vassenor]

Because kicking someone out of a job interview because of their religion is just them being a gold digger?

If they threaten to sue you for not giving them money, yeah

She was literally subjected to religious discrimination. This isn't her being a gold digger.

[Mardla]

If they threaten to sue you for not giving them money, yeah

She was literally subjected to religious discrimination. This isn't her being a gold digger.

Discrimination in regards to being given $$$

[Vassenor]

She was literally subjected to religious discrimination. This isn't her being a gold digger.

Discrimination in regards to being given $$$

So if I was running a company I could just fire every single Christian there and none of them could do anything about it?