Masterpiece Cakeshop back to court.

[Hurdergaryp]

That better be bacon all the way through.

It can't be called cake if it doesn't contain sugar, otherwise it is just a pile of bacon.

[Puldania]

Can't believe these stupid cakemakers still won't learn.

[Galloism]

Imagine you own a hair salon. You, Bombadil, offer custom hairstyles additionally to just your off the mill haircuts. I come in and ask you to dye my hair red, leaving a portion in the crown black and then I want you to fashion that portion into a swastika because, and I add on my request "I'm celebrating the 70th anniversary of Nazis killing Jews". That's the message I'm conveying with my hair. I just told you that's why I want one of the custom haircuts you offer. You happen to disagree with my message, on moral, political or religious grounds and you refuse to give me that custom hairstyle. You can offer me your other services, which are off the mill hair cuts, but you won't give me the custom hairstyle I asked for because you oppose the message it gives. Should you be forced to give me this hairstyle against your convictions?

Oh no, Its the forest swastika's all over again!

Those sneeki sneeki nazis

[Galloism]

Can't believe these stupid cakemakers still won't learn.

They won’t learn they gave up their right to free speech the moment they started a business?

I guess. I hope that’s something we don’t have to learn, honestly, even if it means dicks take advantage.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Imagine you own a hair salon. You, Bombadil, offer custom hairstyles additionally to just your off the mill haircuts. I come in and ask you to dye my hair red, leaving a portion in the crown black and then I want you to fashion that portion into a swastika because, and I add on my request "I'm celebrating the 70th anniversary of Nazis killing Jews". That's the message I'm conveying with my hair. I just told you that's why I want one of the custom haircuts you offer. You happen to disagree with my message, on moral, political or religious grounds and you refuse to give me that custom hairstyle. You can offer me your other services, which are off the mill hair cuts, but you won't give me the custom hairstyle I asked for because you oppose the message it gives. Should you be forced to give me this hairstyle against your convictions?

Oh no, Its the forest swastika's all over again!

Oh yeaaaahhhhhh...

[Bombadil]

Perhaps, I feel that slides over a border, that it notches up potential meaning over just a blue and pink cake.. or a white and purple cake.. or whatever.. adding a: a man and b: a gun reduces the potential neutrality of message.. and that reduction, as tiny as it might be.. can be interpreted as forcing someone in terms of speech over just a cake of two colours.

Maybe two colours is the border.. maybe just one colour is no meaning in and of itself enough that it's discriminatory to refuse to make that cake for a specific class of people, where the class of people is more distinct than the message.

..but I don't think a figure of a man holding a gun is the same as a two tone cake alone, with no figurine and no written message.

How about a three tone cake?

Ha.. you know I took a law degree and it made me decide not to take it on.. specifically there was a case in UK Land Law where two neighbours were arguing over cutting a hedge between their land.. well you had to go back through land deeds as to who actually owned the hedge and on and on because English land is so damn convoluted and really I just thought.. the law is about settling between two assholes who can't agree on a minor fucking thing.. just cut the hedge if it bothers you.

Yet I know it's these fine nuances that make the definition.

..and then I want you to fashion that portion into a swastika..

..well first a Swastika has a pretty well understood meaning, regardless of the other symbolic meaning because..

..and I add on my request "I'm celebrating the 70th anniversary of Nazis killing Jews". That's the message I'm conveying with my hair.

.. Jew haters are not a protected class.

[Bombadil]

That better be bacon all the way through.

It can't be called cake if it doesn't contain sugar, otherwise it is just a pile of bacon.

There's been a case about that as well..

The arguments for Jaffa Cakes being a biscuit included: their size, as they were more like biscuits than cakes; packaging, as it was similar to biscuits; and marketing, as they were generally displayed for sale with biscuits rather than cakes. It was also put to the court that they were eaten as a snack, with the fingers, whereas a cake may be expected to be eaten with a fork.

But the key turning point was when McVitie’s QC highlighted how cakes harden when they go stale, biscuits go soggy. A Jaffa goes hard. The case was proven.

During the court battle between Mcvitie’s and Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise, Mcvitie’s baked a giant Jaffa Cake to prove that Jaffa cakes were really cakes and not biscuits.

It was a long and costly dispute, but McVities finally tasted sweet success and Jaffa Cakes were finally recognised as chocolate covered cakes.

Now the £1.19billion Jaffa Cakes made every year are free of the consumer tax.

[Puldania]

Can't believe these stupid cakemakers still won't learn.

They won’t learn they gave up their right to free speech the moment they started a business?

I guess. I hope that’s something we don’t have to learn, honestly, even if it means dicks take advantage.

I more meant that religion isnt a viable excuse for discrimination

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

How about a three tone cake?

Ha.. you know I took a law degree and it made me decide not to take it on.. specifically there was a case in UK Land Law where two neighbours were arguing over cutting a hedge between their land.. well you had to go back through land deeds as to who actually owned the hedge and on and on because English land is so damn convoluted and really I just thought.. the law is about settling between two assholes who can't agree on a minor fucking thing.. just cut the hedge if it bothers you.

Yet I know it's these fine nuances that make the definition.

..and then I want you to fashion that portion into a swastika..

..well first a Swastika has a pretty well understood meaning, regardless of the other symbolic meaning because..

..and I add on my request "I'm celebrating the 70th anniversary of Nazis killing Jews". That's the message I'm conveying with my hair.

.. Jew haters are not a protected class.

You can display swastikas freely in the US, where this case is taking place. I ask you again, should you be compelled to give me the requested custom hairstyle if it goes against your convictions?

[Hirota]

They won’t learn they gave up their right to free speech the moment they started a business?

I guess. I hope that’s something we don’t have to learn, honestly, even if it means dicks take advantage.

I more meant that religion isnt a viable excuse for discrimination

Is there any viable excuse for discrimination?

[Puldania]

I more meant that religion isnt a viable excuse for discrimination

Is there any viable excuse for discrimination?

Ignorance probably.

[Bombadil]

You can display swastikas freely in the US, where this case is taking place. I ask you again, should you be compelled to give me the requested custom hairstyle if it goes against your convictions?

No, I mean it would be better if you left out the Swastika, which has one of two meanings as opposed to a two tone cake. If you went with just red and black that might be closer.

Still, hatred of Jews is not a class it's a belief, I don't have to agree with your beliefs but I can't discriminate against you just because of colour, race, gender or sexuality.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You can display swastikas freely in the US, where this case is taking place. I ask you again, should you be compelled to give me the requested custom hairstyle if it goes against your convictions?

No, I mean it would be better if you left out the Swastika, which has one of two meanings as opposed to a two tone cake. If you went with just red and black that might be closer.

Still, hatred of Jews is not a class it's a belief, I don't have to agree with your beliefs but I can't discriminate against you just because of colour, race, gender or sexuality.

The issue is not the cake but the message conveyed in it and which the baker opposes. That of "celebrating the 7th anniversary of coming out as transgender". Just like red hair and a black swastika aren't the issue really but the message of "celebrating Nazis killing Jews" is.

[Galloism]

They won’t learn they gave up their right to free speech the moment they started a business?

I guess. I hope that’s something we don’t have to learn, honestly, even if it means dicks take advantage.

I more meant that religion isnt a viable excuse for discrimination

Despite the protestation, this really isn’t a religious freedom issue. It’s a free speech issue - kind of like West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette - which was also pursued as a religious freedom issue incidentally.

[Holy Tedalonia]

..and I add on my request "I'm celebrating the 70th anniversary of Nazis killing Jews". That's the message I'm conveying with my hair.

.. Jew haters are not a protected class.

Thats weak. If we must deem class protection, id say vampires need it the most. Us vampires are by far the less represented of any race. We all know Ted Cruz is the only political vampire in office right now. I demand more vampiric representation, and more class protection!

[Estanglia]

How is he being homophobic? I know that the baker's situation is in a grey area, but Two Jerseys hasn't gone around saying anything homophobic.

By supporting a homophobe.

Supporting somebody's right to do/not do something =/= agreeing with them/supporting them personally.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

By supporting a homophobe.

Supporting somebody's right to do/not do something =/= agreeing with them/supporting them personally.

This, exactly this. ^

[Hirota]

Is there any viable excuse for discrimination?

Ignorance probably.

I'm an atheist, and I'd argue religion and dogma is an example of ignorance and entrenched, inflexible, dogmatic thinking. Therefore someone arguing that religion is a viable reason for discrimination is the same as someone arguing from ignorance, although certainly not the only example of someone arguing from ignorance.

<shrugs>

[Bombadil]

No, I mean it would be better if you left out the Swastika, which has one of two meanings as opposed to a two tone cake. If you went with just red and black that might be closer.

Still, hatred of Jews is not a class it's a belief, I don't have to agree with your beliefs but I can't discriminate against you just because of colour, race, gender or sexuality.

The issue is not the cake but the message conveyed in it and which the baker opposes. That of "celebrating the 7th anniversary of coming out as transgender". Just like red hair and a black swastika aren't the issue really but the message of "celebrating Nazis killing Jews" is.

Well if a guy came in and said he wanted a cake for his son's birthday and the baker said I don't agree with blacks growing older.. I don't make birthday cakes for black kids..

I mean if the courts rule that's ok then you're allowing for discrimination across the board. Again, one has to move off the case a little and think of the implications of what the ruling would entail.. that anyone could deny services that symbolise any message they disagree with. Maybe that's jew hating.. but maybe that's black people, gay people, Mexicans, transgenders.. hence I speak of protected classes against discrimination over just someone's belief.

There's different aspects clashing here.

What constitutes a message - two colours, a written message, a figurine?
Where does free speech bump up against discrimination - I mean here we're actually talking about the freedom not to speak but is a freedom not to speak more important than the ability of someone of any race, colour, gender or sexuality to walk into a shop and expect the same rights to service as any other?

[Harmonian Hegemony]

By supporting a homophobe.

Supporting somebody's right to do/not do something =/= agreeing with them/supporting them personally.

Supporting someone discriminating against trans people does.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Again, as a transwoman
Making art, such as this cake, is expression. The government cannot force you to express something you do not agree with. This guy is a bigoted idiot and a terrible business man, but he's not doing anything illegal.

[Harmonian Hegemony]

No, I mean it would be better if you left out the Swastika, which has one of two meanings as opposed to a two tone cake. If you went with just red and black that might be closer.

Still, hatred of Jews is not a class it's a belief, I don't have to agree with your beliefs but I can't discriminate against you just because of colour, race, gender or sexuality.

The issue is not the cake but the message conveyed in it and which the baker opposes. That of "celebrating the 7th anniversary of coming out as transgender". Just like red hair and a black swastika aren't the issue really but the message of "celebrating Nazis killing Jews" is.

Gay people arn't Nazis

[Bombadil]

.. Jew haters are not a protected class.

Thats weak. If we must deem class protection, id say vampires need it the most. Us vampires are by far the less represented of any race. We all know Ted Cruz is the only political vampire in office right now. I demand more vampiric representation, and more class protection!

Seen any unicorns lately, no, because they're harassed and persecuted into hiding.. granted they steal kidneys with promises of Candy Mountain all the time but still..

[Internationalist Bastard]

The issue is not the cake but the message conveyed in it and which the baker opposes. That of "celebrating the 7th anniversary of coming out as transgender". Just like red hair and a black swastika aren't the issue really but the message of "celebrating Nazis killing Jews" is.

Gay people arn't Nazis

Then what do I have this uniform for?

[Harmonian Hegemony]

Again, as a transwoman
Making art, such as this cake, is expression. The government cannot force you to express something you do not agree with. This guy is a bigoted idiot and a terrible business man, but he's not doing anything illegal.

So treating trans people as second class citizens should be legal? OK then, you can give up your right to vote.