Should torturers be "enemies of all humankind?"

[US-SSR]

Der Spiegel recently reported German federal prosecutors issued an international arrest warrant for Syrian Air Force Intelligence chief and alleged Assad regime torture master Jamil Hassan.

Under Article 8 of the UN Convention against Torture, torturers can be subject to extradition regardless of the terms of extradition treaties between States Parties, that is, as far as States Parties to the Convention are concerned, they are treated as "enemies of all humankind" (hostes humani generis). Both Syria and Germany are States Parties to the Convention.

Therefore, the Assad regime has an international obligation to hand Hassan over to Germany for trial, including possible conviction and punishment.

[Aellex]

lel good luck with that m8

[Petrasylvania]

Scapegoat individuals for crimes committed on behalf of governments that employ or even train them? That's letting governments off too easy

[Sovaal]

Why just the torturers? What about the tyrants and despots around the world that employ them?

[Ostroeuropa]

The category is reserved for Pirates (At war with all nations by pillaging on the high seas, a common property to all mankind), Slavers, and Torturers. Any authority may punish any individual who has committed these crimes and has universal jurisdiction over them.

The US supreme court has likewise ruled that torturers are hostis humani generis and that universal jurisdiction exists, when they prosecuted some columbian torturers who had tortured columbians in colombia and said that it was their jurisdiction nonetheless because of the category of hostis humani generis.

[Ostroeuropa]

Why just the torturers? What about the tyrants and despots around the world that employ them?

It's a legal term limited to pirates, torturers, and slavers in that they are regarded as being at war with all nations on earth. Any nation may prosecute people who have committed these crimes regardless of where they committed them or who the victims were, because they are regarded as crimes against all of humanity.

[Rage Issues]

[Greed and Death]

I mean imagine if your only skill was hurting others without killing them. They are entitled to a job as much as you or me.

[Fartsniffage]

I mean imagine if your only skill was hurting others without killing them. They are entitled to a job as much as you or me.

But you're already a lawyer.

[Cedoria]

The category is reserved for Pirates (At war with all nations by pillaging on the high seas, a common property to all mankind), Slavers, and Torturers. Any authority may punish any individual who has committed these crimes and has universal jurisdiction over them.

The US supreme court has likewise ruled that torturers are hostis humani generis and that universal jurisdiction exists, when they prosecuted some columbian torturers who had tortured columbians in colombia and said that it was their jurisdiction nonetheless because of the category of hostis humani generis.

Universal jurisdiction apparently only exists when it comes to regimes opposed by the United States.

If that were not the case, Henry Kissinger would be in an orange jumpsuit right now.

[Page]

If that were not the case, Henry Kissinger would be in an orange jumpsuit right now.

In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.

And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.

Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.

[US-SSR]

If that were not the case, Henry Kissinger would be in an orange jumpsuit right now.

In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.

And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.

Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.

In fairness to Henry K., afaik he never ordered US Government personnel to torture anyone or advocated torture by US Government personnel as a policy; however indifferent to human suffering he may have been. Cheney and his boss, Haspel et. al., yeah.

So let's say some of the individuals tortured in US-run black sites were Syrian and Syria puts out Interpol Red Notices for W, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Haspel. As a State Party to the UN Convention against Torture, the US would be obligated to extradite them to Damascus to stand trial, no? If not, what excuse could it use? "We're the US and we're exceptional?"

For the purposes of this thread though can we try to confine ourselves to torture? Glad as I would be to see that lot sent up for planning aggressive war, "the supreme international crime" as stated at Nueremberg.

[Dogmeat]

I mean imagine if your only skill was hurting others without killing them. They are entitled to a job as much as you or me.

But you're already a lawyer.

Or if law doesn't suit you: Dentistry.

[Cedoria]

If that were not the case, Henry Kissinger would be in an orange jumpsuit right now.

In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.

And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.

Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.

I agree, but only the disingenuous or the stupid would say that the way universal jurisdiction is presently applies does this.

[Cedoria]

In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.

And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.

Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.

In fairness to Henry K., afaik he never ordered US Government personnel to torture anyone or advocated torture by US Government personnel as a policy; however indifferent to human suffering he may have been. Cheney and his boss, Haspel et. al., yeah.

So let's say some of the individuals tortured in US-run black sites were Syrian and Syria puts out Interpol Red Notices for W, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Haspel. As a State Party to the UN Convention against Torture, the US would be obligated to extradite them to Damascus to stand trial, no? If not, what excuse could it use? "We're the US and we're exceptional?"

For the purposes of this thread though can we try to confine ourselves to torture? Glad as I would be to see that lot sent up for planning aggressive war, "the supreme international crime" as stated at Nueremberg.

He did order them to engage in genocide and aggressive war however, as well as conspired to commit illegal assassination and torture of both foreign and US citizens in times outside of declared war.

But sure, that's a little broad, I just used him as an example of how universal jurisdiction is a self-interested practice at this point, good though I find the idea.

[US-SSR]

In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.

And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.

Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.

I agree, but only the disingenuous or the stupid would say that the way universal jurisdiction is presently applies does this.

Well, at least some nationals of States Party to the UN Convention suffered torture at the hands of US and allied government personnel during the late unpleasantness. What's stopping them from putting out international warrants for those responsible?

[Saiwania]

No, because when I really and truly think about it, it is one of those things I wish I could make into a career. It is such an easy job relatively speaking. Getting paid simply to inflict as much pain as is necessary- what can be better?

I love being the bully, I crave the power to be had, and I relish being in control in this way.

[US-SSR]

[Kissinger] did order them to engage in genocide and aggressive war however, as well as conspired to commit illegal assassination and torture of both foreign and US citizens in times outside of declared war.

But sure, that's a little broad, I just used him as an example of how universal jurisdiction is a self-interested practice at this point, good though I find the idea.

I do think we need to distinguish, if only for purposes of this thread, between human suffering caused by his actions and policies and positive orders to inflict torture on individuals and/or members of certain groups. iirc it was the Kennedy Administration that supported the coup in the Republic of Vietnam during which Diem was assassinated. Cambodia, maybe? If you've got sources for Kissinger ordering assassination or torture I'd be interested.

[Page]

In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.

And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.

Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.

In fairness to Henry K., afaik he never ordered US Government personnel to torture anyone or advocated torture by US Government personnel as a policy; however indifferent to human suffering he may have been. Cheney and his boss, Haspel et. al., yeah.

So let's say some of the individuals tortured in US-run black sites were Syrian and Syria puts out Interpol Red Notices for W, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Haspel. As a State Party to the UN Convention against Torture, the US would be obligated to extradite them to Damascus to stand trial, no? If not, what excuse could it use? "We're the US and we're exceptional?"

For the purposes of this thread though can we try to confine ourselves to torture? Glad as I would be to see that lot sent up for planning aggressive war, "the supreme international crime" as stated at Nueremberg.

If we're talking about the real world and what would happen rather than what should happen, it would come to pass that America would say "we're exceptional" and not comply with extradition, there would be some finger wagging, but nothing would happen.

[US-SSR]

No, because when I really and truly think about it, it is one of those things I wish I could make into a career. It is such an easy job relatively speaking. Getting paid simply to inflict as much pain as is necessary- what can be better?

If you're truly interested in such things a quick scan of the international headlines should give you a good idea where you can apply; or you could go train under some practitioner of SM. Do be careful though; remember what happened to the death details in the concentration camps...

[Cedoria]

I agree, but only the disingenuous or the stupid would say that the way universal jurisdiction is presently applies does this.

Well, at least some nationals of States Party to the UN Convention suffered torture at the hands of US and allied government personnel during the late unpleasantness. What's stopping them from putting out international warrants for those responsible?

Hopefully nothing, but nobody with a functioning brain believes that the US government would actually extradite them. It has failed to do so in the past when served with such notices I believe.

[Cedoria]

[Kissinger] did order them to engage in genocide and aggressive war however, as well as conspired to commit illegal assassination and torture of both foreign and US citizens in times outside of declared war.

But sure, that's a little broad, I just used him as an example of how universal jurisdiction is a self-interested practice at this point, good though I find the idea.

I do think we need to distinguish, if only for purposes of this thread, between human suffering caused by his actions and policies and positive orders to inflict torture on individuals and/or members of certain groups. iirc it was the Kennedy Administration that supported the coup in the Republic of Vietnam during which Diem was assassinated. Cambodia, maybe? If you've got sources for Kissinger ordering assassination or torture I'd be interested.

The assassination one is fairly easy to prove. While Kissinger still denies it, it was carried out on his orders, as part of Operation Condor, a network of right-wing death squads in South America who were linked by support of the US Government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassina ... o_Letelier

Book: The Trial of Henry Kissinger has a chapter on the episode, as well as chronicling many of his other atrocities for which he should face legal repercussion.

Prior to the assassination it was Kissinger who first wrote a slanderous and paranoid memorandum on Letelier to the desk of the President (putting the lie to his later defence that he couldn't have ordered him dead because he knew nothing about him). Kissinger then blocked subsequent attempts to investigate the assassination by US officials.

Let's remind ourselves, a foreign political dissident on US soil was murdered, at the hands of a hit squad hired by a death squad regime, with the complicity and support of the highest government officials in the United States, who then conspired to cover up same, blocking all attempts at investigation.

For genocide, his order of "everything that flies against everything that moves" is as near as you're ever likely to hear to an explicit command of genocide. He was also complicit in the genocide in then East Pakistan, to such an extent that it prompted a revolt from US diplomats who issued an unprecedented statement of protest, the famous "Blood Telegram" for which I recommend the following book.

"The Blood Telegram: Nixon, Kissinger, and a Forgotten Genocide"

Since the Genocide Convention explicitly states that any government is not only allowed, but is in fact MANDATED to take action to prevent or punish such acts, Kissinger is legally complicit here as well, as are the other senior Nixon officials.


He was also the person who signed off on the order to assassinate Chilean general Rene Schneider, the Chilean army officer who had rebuffed those who suggested that the Chilean Army should take the step to prevent an elected President of that country from taking his place. The General felt the army should stick to its constitutional role, to safeguard the transition period, not take power itself just because the Chilean people had elected an inconvenient candidate.

For his trouble, he had an American backed squad of Fascist gangsters murder him, with weapons paid for by American tax dollars, and money wired from American accounts traceable back to the 40 Committee, of which Kissinger was chair, after the murder was done.

[Cedoria]

No, because when I really and truly think about it, it is one of those things I wish I could make into a career. It is such an easy job relatively speaking. Getting paid simply to inflict as much pain as is necessary- what can be better?

I love being the bully, I crave the power to be had, and I relish being in control in this way.

Well I can't say this bonkers screed surprises me. Unlucky for you then, that such people rarely end up living to the fullest extent possible.

On the bright side, I can now quote you saying that whenever anybody suggests taking anything you say seriously again, so thanks:)

[Risottia]

Yes, they should be considered hostes humani generis.
And we should start issuing international arrest warrants to torturers and those who order torture. There's a nice list of Sudanese, Libyans, Americans...

[Chan Island]

No, because when I really and truly think about it, it is one of those things I wish I could make into a career. It is such an easy job relatively speaking. Getting paid simply to inflict as much pain as is necessary- what can be better?

I love being the bully, I crave the power to be had, and I relish being in control in this way.

We were all having so much fun, and having such an interesting discussion on an important aspect of international law, and then you ruined it.