by US-SSR » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:43 pm
by Aellex » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:44 pm
by Petrasylvania » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:46 pm
by Sovaal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:47 pm
by Ostroeuropa » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:48 pm
by Ostroeuropa » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:48 pm
Sovaal wrote:Why just the torturers? What about the tyrants and despots around the world that employ them?
by Rage Issues » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:50 pm
by Greed and Death » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:54 pm
by Fartsniffage » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:55 pm
Greed and Death wrote:I mean imagine if your only skill was hurting others without killing them. They are entitled to a job as much as you or me.
by Cedoria » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:47 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:The category is reserved for Pirates (At war with all nations by pillaging on the high seas, a common property to all mankind), Slavers, and Torturers. Any authority may punish any individual who has committed these crimes and has universal jurisdiction over them.
The US supreme court has likewise ruled that torturers are hostis humani generis and that universal jurisdiction exists, when they prosecuted some columbian torturers who had tortured columbians in colombia and said that it was their jurisdiction nonetheless because of the category of hostis humani generis.
by Page » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:17 pm
Cedoria wrote:
If that were not the case, Henry Kissinger would be in an orange jumpsuit right now.
by US-SSR » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:23 pm
Page wrote:Cedoria wrote:
If that were not the case, Henry Kissinger would be in an orange jumpsuit right now.
In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.
And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.
Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.
by Cedoria » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:30 pm
Page wrote:Cedoria wrote:
If that were not the case, Henry Kissinger would be in an orange jumpsuit right now.
In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.
And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.
Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.
by Cedoria » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:34 pm
US-SSR wrote:Page wrote:
In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.
And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.
Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.
In fairness to Henry K., afaik he never ordered US Government personnel to torture anyone or advocated torture by US Government personnel as a policy; however indifferent to human suffering he may have been. Cheney and his boss, Haspel et. al., yeah.
So let's say some of the individuals tortured in US-run black sites were Syrian and Syria puts out Interpol Red Notices for W, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Haspel. As a State Party to the UN Convention against Torture, the US would be obligated to extradite them to Damascus to stand trial, no? If not, what excuse could it use? "We're the US and we're exceptional?"
For the purposes of this thread though can we try to confine ourselves to torture? Glad as I would be to see that lot sent up for planning aggressive war, "the supreme international crime" as stated at Nueremberg.
by US-SSR » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:34 pm
Cedoria wrote:Page wrote:
In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.
And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.
Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.
I agree, but only the disingenuous or the stupid would say that the way universal jurisdiction is presently applies does this.
by Saiwania » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:37 pm
by US-SSR » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:40 pm
Cedoria wrote:[Kissinger] did order them to engage in genocide and aggressive war however, as well as conspired to commit illegal assassination and torture of both foreign and US citizens in times outside of declared war.
But sure, that's a little broad, I just used him as an example of how universal jurisdiction is a self-interested practice at this point, good though I find the idea.
by Page » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:40 pm
US-SSR wrote:Page wrote:
In a just world, he would be. Along with Gina Haspel, along with Dick Cheney.
And those in the Assad government who committed war crimes should also be held accountable, along with the rebels who committed war crimes too, and along with the Saudis who are responsible for genocide in Yemen and the Americans who sold them weapons for genocide.
Evil has to be dealt with, torn out root and stem.
In fairness to Henry K., afaik he never ordered US Government personnel to torture anyone or advocated torture by US Government personnel as a policy; however indifferent to human suffering he may have been. Cheney and his boss, Haspel et. al., yeah.
So let's say some of the individuals tortured in US-run black sites were Syrian and Syria puts out Interpol Red Notices for W, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Haspel. As a State Party to the UN Convention against Torture, the US would be obligated to extradite them to Damascus to stand trial, no? If not, what excuse could it use? "We're the US and we're exceptional?"
For the purposes of this thread though can we try to confine ourselves to torture? Glad as I would be to see that lot sent up for planning aggressive war, "the supreme international crime" as stated at Nueremberg.
by US-SSR » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:43 pm
Saiwania wrote:No, because when I really and truly think about it, it is one of those things I wish I could make into a career. It is such an easy job relatively speaking. Getting paid simply to inflict as much pain as is necessary- what can be better?
by Cedoria » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:22 pm
US-SSR wrote:Cedoria wrote:
I agree, but only the disingenuous or the stupid would say that the way universal jurisdiction is presently applies does this.
Well, at least some nationals of States Party to the UN Convention suffered torture at the hands of US and allied government personnel during the late unpleasantness. What's stopping them from putting out international warrants for those responsible?
by Cedoria » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:31 pm
US-SSR wrote:Cedoria wrote:[Kissinger] did order them to engage in genocide and aggressive war however, as well as conspired to commit illegal assassination and torture of both foreign and US citizens in times outside of declared war.
But sure, that's a little broad, I just used him as an example of how universal jurisdiction is a self-interested practice at this point, good though I find the idea.
I do think we need to distinguish, if only for purposes of this thread, between human suffering caused by his actions and policies and positive orders to inflict torture on individuals and/or members of certain groups. iirc it was the Kennedy Administration that supported the coup in the Republic of Vietnam during which Diem was assassinated. Cambodia, maybe? If you've got sources for Kissinger ordering assassination or torture I'd be interested.
by Cedoria » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:33 pm
Saiwania wrote:No, because when I really and truly think about it, it is one of those things I wish I could make into a career. It is such an easy job relatively speaking. Getting paid simply to inflict as much pain as is necessary- what can be better?
I love being the bully, I crave the power to be had, and I relish being in control in this way.
by Risottia » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:44 pm
by Chan Island » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:44 pm
Saiwania wrote:No, because when I really and truly think about it, it is one of those things I wish I could make into a career. It is such an easy job relatively speaking. Getting paid simply to inflict as much pain as is necessary- what can be better?
I love being the bully, I crave the power to be had, and I relish being in control in this way.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
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