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Overhauling the Education System

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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
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Overhauling the Education System

Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:49 am

Human civilisation is technologically and socially progressing at an accelerating rate, and every major change in human history has demanded that humans alter their method of education drastically. For hundreds of thousands of years, Homo sapiens has lived as hunter-gathering communities and tribes - thus education was based on oral communication between families and tribes. Then, at 10,000 BCE, humans began to develop agriculture and permanent settlements, which grew into civilisations - therefore, education for the most part transitioned towards apprenticeships through working for a master craftsman, slave master or being part of a guild, while the first universities existed for higher education for the aristocracy. Then, during the 18th and 19th centuries, the Industrial Revolution began, and the world transitioned from agrarian economies to industrial economies - therefore, education transitioned towards mandatory schooling by specialised teachers, and ranking of academic ability through examinations (the system we have today). However, during the final decades of the 20th century, the information age began, and the world is now economically largely based on a rapidly changing service industry - and we still use the industrial-age system.

The point is, the current education system is outdated and flawed. As qualification for employment is based on exams, which require students to regurgitate a series of facts (which practically everyone forgets after they leave the exam hall) rather than to truly understand their subject, the system promotes incomplete understanding of subjects. Instead of allowing students to pursue their real interests, they are forced through a few state-approved subjects and ranked via exams as "bad products" or "good products" like a production line made to produce workers (who will probably find that the job market no longer demands the skills they were taught). Children's curiosity is incredibly difficult to kill (toddlers tend to ask about everything), however the education system kills curiosity with brutal efficiency - young people nowadays tend to perceive education as a chore. Furthermore, this system is detrimental to students' mental health - rates of student depression and suicide are at an all-time high around the world due to the pressure students are put under to not be ranked as "bad products".

Education does not have to be like this. For example, in Finland there is no standardised testing before the senior year of high school or even homework - and ever since Finland entered the PISA programme in 2008, their students have topped PISA scores ever since, surpassing countries such as China and South Korea which focus heavily on rote learning.

However, the first signs of an Information Age transition are appearing with the rise of online learning applications, educational YouTube videos and online courses on platforms such as Skillshare. IMO the best education system for the information age would be where academic education is taught entirely online, with online educators competing to be unique and to offer high-quality education, while mandatory "social education sessions" where students of similar age groups meet each other and gain social experience exist to prevent loss of social interaction which occurs in industrial-age schooling.

What do you think, NSG?

Sources are here

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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:01 am

I don’t think entirely online would quite work in all circumstances.
A lot of subjects require hands in practical experience, and even if that’s not strictly necessary, certainly some learn better by hands on experience.
I also feel that online courses have the disadvantage of having little to no interaction between the student and the “teacher”, which can be a great boon.
Access is another issue. As much as we in the West have almost ubiquitous access to the internet, it is just that. Almost. An entirely online education scheme would be detrimental to those who, for whatever reason, do not have regular unrestricted access to the internet.

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:23 am

The problem with online schools is that students of online schools usually are a few years behind in math and English than people in regular schools and some people can't do online school. A much better improvement to the education system would really be what Finland did with no homework. At least homework should be actually useful. Testing might be necessary, sadly, but it shouldn't be so important.

Also, your comment about education being viewed as a chore, not everyone is like that. I know a lot of people who do double school or at least enjoy school.
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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
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Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:24 am

Geneviev wrote:The problem with online schools is that students of online schools usually are a few years behind in math and English than people in regular schools and some people can't do online school. A much better improvement to the education system would really be what Finland did with no homework. At least homework should be actually useful. Testing might be necessary, sadly, but it shouldn't be so important.

Also, your comment about education being viewed as a chore, not everyone is like that. I know a lot of people who do double school or at least enjoy school.

Most students tend to view education as a chore, not all

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:27 am

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:
Geneviev wrote:The problem with online schools is that students of online schools usually are a few years behind in math and English than people in regular schools and some people can't do online school. A much better improvement to the education system would really be what Finland did with no homework. At least homework should be actually useful. Testing might be necessary, sadly, but it shouldn't be so important.

Also, your comment about education being viewed as a chore, not everyone is like that. I know a lot of people who do double school or at least enjoy school.

Most students tend to view education as a chore, not all

I wouldn't say most, either. A lot of people do like education, just not school. That's why Khan Academy is so popular. Or Crash Course.
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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
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Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:35 am

Geneviev wrote:
Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:Most students tend to view education as a chore, not all

I wouldn't say most, either. A lot of people do like education, just not school. That's why Khan Academy is so popular. Or Crash Course.

FYI, I'm talking about traditional schooling, not online courses.

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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:56 am

Not sure legitimizing the Internet as an "information" source is really that helpful. Sure it's a pain in the ass to have to get up at 7am... but a generation of kids who deny climate change and the holocaust, or blame autism on vaccines, would ALSO be a pain in the ass. Even testing wouldn't offset this, as a kid's test answers might be insincere.

The problem isn't even standardized testing, it's high-stakes testing. Some courses even at the high school level make one standardized test worth 50% of the grade instead of, you know, spreading that grade weighting out over multiple smaller standardized tests to get a more representative sample.

If Finland's education system is better, it's because a society more willing to embrace democratic socialism isn't going to be as halfhearted in its support for a public service like education.
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:29 am

Every kid should get an IEP
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Postby Uxupox » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:32 am

"taught online". not everybody has access to the internet.
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Postby Geneviev » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:36 am

Ethel mermania wrote:Every kid should get an IEP

That'd be great for us and terrible for the teachers.
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Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:37 am

Uxupox wrote:"taught online". not everybody has access to the internet.

In the developed world, most people have access, and the fraction of humanity with internet access is rapidly growing. Plus, in Finland (why are they so good at anything education-related?), internet access has been a legal right since 2010

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:40 am

Geneviev wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Every kid should get an IEP

That'd be great for us and terrible for the teachers.


It would improve a kids education by accurately targeting what is required for the individuals mastering a topic, and makes that improvement definable and measurable.
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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Postby Geneviev » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:43 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Geneviev wrote:That'd be great for us and terrible for the teachers.


It would improve a kids education by accurately targeting what is required for the individuals mastering a topic, and makes that improvement definable and measurable.

It would be great for us. But one of my teachers has 800 students and that would just be too many IEPs.
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:55 am

Uxupox wrote:"taught online". not everybody has access to the internet.


Perhaps we should do something about that.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:03 am

Geneviev wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
It would improve a kids education by accurately targeting what is required for the individuals mastering a topic, and makes that improvement definable and measurable.

It would be great for us. But one of my teachers has 800 students and that would just be too many IEPs.

To bad. The whole point is to educate the kids, not make life easy on the teachers

Though one teacher dealing with 800 kids is absurd, and honestly I don't believe it. If it were true that is a staffing issue in your district, because that teacher doesn't have the time to deal with half as many kids
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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Postby Geneviev » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:07 am

Ethel mermania wrote:
Geneviev wrote:It would be great for us. But one of my teachers has 800 students and that would just be too many IEPs.

To bad. The whole point is to educate the kids, not make life easy on the teachers

Though one teacher dealing with 800 kids is absurd, and honestly I don't believe it. If it were true that is a staffing issue in your district, because that teacher doesn't have the time to deal with half as many kids

To quote a Yelp review of my school... "the district sucks."

And teachers can't be good teachers if they have too much to do. Then they don't have time to actually teach.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:08 am

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:
Uxupox wrote:"taught online". not everybody has access to the internet.

In the developed world, most people have access, and the fraction of humanity with internet access is rapidly growing. Plus, in Finland (why are they so good at anything education-related?), internet access has been a legal right since 2010

The problem with this is that there is still a massive portion of people in the world, even in developed countries, with very poor reading skills.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:10 am

Geneviev wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:To bad. The whole point is to educate the kids, not make life easy on the teachers

Though one teacher dealing with 800 kids is absurd, and honestly I don't believe it. If it were true that is a staffing issue in your district, because that teacher doesn't have the time to deal with half as many kids

To quote a Yelp review of my school... "the district sucks."

And teachers can't be good teachers if they have too much to do. Then they don't have time to actually teach.


Agreed.
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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Postby Zex » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:18 am

Ban gender studies

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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
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Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:27 am

Zex wrote:Ban gender studies

This thread is about overhauling the education system as a whole, not banning gender studies. Link below to the right thread:

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=448200

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Postby Zex » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:34 am

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:
Zex wrote:Ban gender studies

This thread is about overhauling the education system as a whole, not banning gender studies. Link below to the right thread: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=448200

It's a good start, you need a foundation before you start building.

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Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft
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Postby Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft » Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:37 am

Zex wrote:
Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:This thread is about overhauling the education system as a whole, not banning gender studies. Link below to the right thread: https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=448200

It's a good start, you need a foundation before you start building.

We're talking about replacing the whole system of standardised testing and the like, not banning subjects to push discriminatory agendas.

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Postby Sovaal » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:36 am

Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft wrote:Human civilisation is technologically and socially progressing at an accelerating rate, and every major change in human history has demanded that humans alter their method of education drastically. For hundreds of thousands of years, Homo sapiens has lived as hunter-gathering communities and tribes - thus education was based on oral communication between families and tribes. Then, at 10,000 BCE, humans began to develop agriculture and permanent settlements, which grew into civilisations - therefore, education for the most part transitioned towards apprenticeships through working for a master craftsman, slave master or being part of a guild, while the first universities existed for higher education for the aristocracy. Then, during the 18th and 19th centuries, the Industrial Revolution began, and the world transitioned from agrarian economies to industrial economies - therefore, education transitioned towards mandatory schooling by specialised teachers, and ranking of academic ability through examinations (the system we have today). However, during the final decades of the 20th century, the information age began, and the world is now economically largely based on a rapidly changing service industry - and we still use the industrial-age system.

The point is, the current education system is outdated and flawed. As qualification for employment is based on exams, which require students to regurgitate a series of facts (which practically everyone forgets after they leave the exam hall) rather than to truly understand their subject, the system promotes incomplete understanding of subjects. Instead of allowing students to pursue their real interests, they are forced through a few state-approved subjects and ranked via exams as "bad products" or "good products" like a production line made to produce workers (who will probably find that the job market no longer demands the skills they were taught). Children's curiosity is incredibly difficult to kill (toddlers tend to ask about everything), however the education system kills curiosity with brutal efficiency - young people nowadays tend to perceive education as a chore. Furthermore, this system is detrimental to students' mental health - rates of student depression and suicide are at an all-time high around the world due to the pressure students are put under to not be ranked as "bad products".

Education does not have to be like this. For example, in Finland there is no standardised testing before the senior year of high school or even homework - and ever since Finland entered the PISA programme in 2008, their students have topped PISA scores ever since, surpassing countries such as China and South Korea which focus heavily on rote learning.

However, the first signs of an Information Age transition are appearing with the rise of online learning applications, educational YouTube videos and online courses on platforms such as Skillshare. IMO the best education system for the information age would be where academic education is taught entirely online, with online educators competing to be unique and to offer high-quality education, while mandatory "social education sessions" where students of similar age groups meet each other and gain social experience exist to prevent loss of social interaction which occurs in industrial-age schooling.

What do you think, NSG?


Sources are here

On line learning is nice and all but it's not the be all end all. especially in rural places where even in the West internet connection can be spotty at best, not to mention that school can be the only social interaction for many smaller children in such areas. Honestly education is one of those things where there not really a one size fits all scenario, and it's not exactly something we want to shove into serving the largest common denominator because you end up with the shit system we have now. As for how to fix it, I don't know. Actually treating teaching as a profession that should be respected and rewarded would be a nice start.
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Postby Firaxin » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:44 pm

I think we should tailor unique education to each student, teach them what they need to engage in the community, help them learn about the things they want to learn, help them through problems in their life they are currently having, give them teachers they like.

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Postby Page » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:56 pm

Here's my take on what an ideal education system looks like.

First of all, good literacy has to be instilled from a young age. That means more than the ability to read but also the ability to write and to comprehend what one is reading. Literacy is the cornerstone of being able to learn other things, so when students are young children, literacy focused classes should take up most of their time.

Once middle school and high school comes around, I think there needs to be a balance of important knowledge, learning practical skills, and learning critical thinking. School shouldn't be mainly based on memorization, but students need to understand basic sciences, social sciences and math. Practical skills is pretty self-explanatory, there could be a wide variety of options offered and students could choose a few of them.

At the high school level, there should be a good deal of time devoted to learning applicable things, but there should also be time dedicated to critical thinking skills. There should be philosophy and ethics classes in every high school. Students should be given assignments like "Write down a moral belief that is of extreme importance to you, now play devil's advocate and offer a good argument why you're wrong." Students should be told to view news from various sources and learn to recognize patterns of bias in the media. Stuff like that will create citizens who are skeptics and who do not follow blindly, which is essential to preserving democracy.
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