MAGAThread XIV: All persons born or naturalized ...

[Valrifell]

Joke's on you, that case was decided on freedom of expression grounds and not commerce or service.

It sets a precedent.

Not the one you think it does. Businesses/individuals can not be coerced into expressing a certain type of message, that's a very narrow precedent for what you want. Unless, of course, you're twisting the definition of "message" to mean whatever you want it to be.

[Vince Vaughn]

I demand the Jewish baker bake me an Odinist cake laden with images of Himmler, as it is part of my religion and religion is a protected class.

[Valrifell]

I demand the Jewish baker bake me an Odinist cake laden with images of Himmler, as it is part of my religion and religion is a protected class.

This would be a poor argument even if someone were actually arguing against the ruling.

[Tobleste]

Sometimes the free market can be too free, can be too narrow-minded, can afford to lose money and clients to uphold existing strictures and norms of behavior, however prejudicial -- as any system run and justified by people will tend to do. The free market doesn't always set the tone, whatever its internal logic, people do, and when people are dicks, there must be a party that intervenes and sets things right.

Yeah, but like, quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

I don't know; the law?

[Tobleste]

Yeah, but like, quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The rest of the system. Duh. Like, this is what happened the last time a really great cultural shift occurred in the United States, in the decade and more after Brown.

Yeah I don't get that extreme attitude of some right wingers. Apparently, the democratically elected government can't be trusted with limited power so we need to allow unaccountable private interests to do whatever they want because that's safer. I've never seen that explained in a logical way and I doubt they have either.

[Tobleste]

"It let some of them be nice" doesn't cancel out that it let vastly more folk be nasty, and did so for a long time. I'm not sure changing the rules to feed into people's worst impulses is a good thing.

I wonder why nobody discriminates against the Irish, Italians, or even Asians (for the most part) nowadays.

Because people are used to them and they've married into American society literally and figuratively?

[Tobleste]

And what solutions did the free market provide for impoverished minorities decades after the end of Jim Crow? Payday loan sharks? A private prison industry that brags about its high recidivism rates?

They got to move north where discrimination was less omnipresent. In addition, the prison industry is backed heavily by the government.

That wasn't a free market. That was a free society. America was capitalist back when slavery existed so "free market" says nothing about personal freedom. In fact, you could argue a real "free market" allows for slavery.

[Ifreann]

Sometimes the free market can be too free, can be too narrow-minded, can afford to lose money and clients to uphold existing strictures and norms of behavior, however prejudicial -- as any system run and justified by people will tend to do. The free market doesn't always set the tone, whatever its internal logic, people do, and when people are dicks, there must be a party that intervenes and sets things right.

Yeah, but like, quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The people, via democracy.

[Northern Davincia]

They got to move north where discrimination was less omnipresent. In addition, the prison industry is backed heavily by the government.

That wasn't a free market. That was a free society. America was capitalist back when slavery existed so "free market" says nothing about personal freedom. In fact, you could argue a real "free market" allows for slavery.

Those are the same thing. With regards to where slavery was practiced, that was just rudimentary feudalism. A real free market acknowledges the fact that human beings cannot become property, anymore than a chair can become human.

[Fartsniffage]

That wasn't a free market. That was a free society. America was capitalist back when slavery existed so "free market" says nothing about personal freedom. In fact, you could argue a real "free market" allows for slavery.

Those are the same thing. With regards to where slavery was practiced, that was just rudimentary feudalism. A real free market acknowledges the fact that human beings cannot become property, anymore than a chair can become human.

Which is why slavery no longer exists in modern free market societies like the US......

[Ifreann]

Chairs are people too!

[Petrasylvania]

Chairs are people too!

[Northern Davincia]

Those are the same thing. With regards to where slavery was practiced, that was just rudimentary feudalism. A real free market acknowledges the fact that human beings cannot become property, anymore than a chair can become human.

Which is why slavery no longer exists in modern free market societies like the US......

Slavery could never compete with industrialization. That's why the south proved to be a sore loser.

[Bombadil]

Which is why slavery no longer exists in modern free market societies like the US......

Slavery could never compete with industrialization. That's why the south proved to be a sore loser.

Feels way off track here but..

..slavery and industrialisation are two different things.

Anyway seems very likely Trump will face a contender in the primaries from a Republican, Kasich is strongly considering - though I don't think he'd be any more successful than he was last time..

..nothing would feel a more fitting end than being beaten in the primaries.. I'm sure it won't happen but it would sure be a nice send off.

[Northern Davincia]

Slavery could never compete with industrialization. That's why the south proved to be a sore loser.

Feels way off track here but..

..slavery and industrialisation are two different things.

Anyway seems very likely Trump will face a contender in the primaries from a Republican, Kasich is strongly considering - though I don't think he'd be any more successful than he was last time..

..nothing would feel a more fitting end than being beaten in the primaries.. I'm sure it won't happen but it would sure be a nice send off.

Kasich might stand a good chance if it's in a 1-on-1.

[Kowani]

Which is why slavery no longer exists in modern free market societies like the US......

Slavery could never compete with industrialization. That's why the south proved to be a sore loser.

I mean, no. Slavery was, and would have continued to be economically viable. Factories did help, definitely, but population and railroads were also major factors.

[Duhon]

Which is why slavery no longer exists in modern free market societies like the US......

Slavery could never compete with industrialization. That's why the south proved to be a sore loser.

Which is why what CNN blandly if accurately calls "modern-day slavery" still exists, why various forms of forced, underpaid, or unpaid labor still proliferate the world over, even in the United States, despite (or even because of) the twin towers of industrialization and mechanization.

The fact of the matter is that there is nothing in the free market as a concept from adapting supposedly "feudal" practices such as chattel slavery for the benefit of those who traffic in it. Capitalism alone will not rationalize desire or prejudice, for we as a species are not totally rational animals.

[Chernoslavia]

Yeah, but like, quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

The people, via democracy.

We're not a democracy, stop it.

[Xadufell]

Slavery could never compete with industrialization. That's why the south proved to be a sore loser.

for we as a species are not totally rational animals.

Yeah, you're pretty clear evidence of this.

[Valrifell]

The people, via democracy.

We're not a democracy, stop it.

Republics and democracy are not mutually exclusive. We are a democratic republic. A democracy.

Don't play semantics if you don't know the meanings of words.

[Chernoslavia]

We're not a democracy, stop it.

Republics and democracy are not mutually exclusive. We are a democratic republic. A democracy.

Don't play semantics if you don't know the meanings of words.

Never said they were, we're still not a democracy, we're a constitutional republic. You don't know what you're talking about.

Except I do very well know what these words mean, you're the one who should educate yourself.

[Tobleste]

We're not a democracy, stop it.

Republics and democracy are not mutually exclusive. We are a democratic republic. A democracy.

Don't play semantics if you don't know the meanings of words.

The "republic, not a democracy" line should be punished by mods at this point considering how stupid it is.

[Chernoslavia]

Republics and democracy are not mutually exclusive. We are a democratic republic. A democracy.

Don't play semantics if you don't know the meanings of words.

The "republic, not a democracy" line should be punished by mods at this point considering how stupid it is.

Explain.

[Tobleste]

That wasn't a free market. That was a free society. America was capitalist back when slavery existed so "free market" says nothing about personal freedom. In fact, you could argue a real "free market" allows for slavery.

Those are the same thing. With regards to where slavery was practiced, that was just rudimentary feudalism. A real free market acknowledges the fact that human beings cannot become property, anymore than a chair can become human.

They aren't the same thing. A market is some sort of system/location that allows exchanges. That's it. It excludes slavery only because of the law. Saying a "real free market" (whatever that is) excludes slavery is like saying a "real internet browser" doesn't include hard core pornography. It's an arbitrary change in the definition of the word you've made to ensure the word is as virtuous as you want to believe.

[Valrifell]

Republics and democracy are not mutually exclusive. We are a democratic republic. A democracy.

Don't play semantics if you don't know the meanings of words.

Never said they were, we're still not a democracy, we're a constitutional republic. You don't know what you're talking about.

A democracy is any given state where power is derived from consent of the governed through vote.

A republic is any form of government without a monarch.

A constitution is a set of defining laws and characteristics that serves the basis and justification for government and governance in a given nation.

All three can coexist. And, oh look, they do.