On the Dachau Massacre

[Uxupox]

That is absolutely unbelievable as there is no evidence nor there has been any suggestions that the pact of steel included Japan.

The thing is though, choosing Japan over China was rather illogical on Hitler's end.

His mistake which means our benefit.

[Dogmeat]

Yes, but "plausible" was at the onset before Wikipedia had been brought in. Quit making more out of this then there is.

The Wikipedia link was included upon posting the OP.

But not attesting to the quoted section of the Daily Mail. You should never use the Daily Mail as a source. It's sensationalist clickbate. That's all I was telling you.

[Sovaal]

The fucking Japanese carrier fleet was on its way to Pearl Harbor during the fucking negotiations. I’m no fan of FDR but he didn’t drag us into the fucking war. This is jut pathetic.

Yet again FDR armed the British and French for no reason and actively took steps to provoke Japan politically.

France and the UK are far more preferable neighbors than the Nazis were.

[US-SSR]

It was George S. Patton, in his capacity as Military Governor of Bavaria, who dismissed the charges brought against the US soldiers responsible for the atrocious killings of SS guards at Dachau. He conveniently died in a car crash some time later. The next of kin of those killed, perhaps the German government, might bring charges either in Germany or the US. However, one assumes most if not all of the perpetrators have also conveniently expired.

Which raises the question, how many responsible for, or witnesses to, or complicit in, the massacre of millions of Jews, Gypsys, political resisters, Russians, POWs, homosexuals, individuals with disabilities, etc. etc. etc. have similarly escaped justice? How many responsible for numberless atrocities throughout history?

It's important and significant to remember what happened to the SS guards at Dachau. It's important and significant to resolve that such things not be allowed to happen again, or to go unpunished if they do (remember Mai Lai?).

But in the grand scheme of things we are arguing over a drop of blood in a bucketfull.

[Khataiy]

That's exactly what I mean by standoffish and quite frankly just plain stupid, why bother even making a statement like that? The best thing to have done would have been to either stay silent or make a call for an immediate cease-fire and leave it at that.

So if your country was invaded by an aggressive foreign power bent on expansion you wouldn't want anyone to help you out? Duly noted.

That's not what I am saying at all, my country wouldn't have been invaded in the first place because I wouldn't have gone around acting like a tough guy with a badass facade that makes me look like an idiot on an international scale.

[Bakery Hill]

"Fascist madmen are seeking to take over the world, and Britain and France are our Friends", is not a reason?

That's exactly what I mean by standoffish and quite frankly just plain stupid, why bother even making a statement like that? The best thing to have done would have been to either stay silent or make a call for an immediate cease-fire and leave it at that.

maybe they should have gone to the league of nations!

[Sovaal]

So we should have just left the Nazis in charge eh?

Anyway, you’re right about one thing; we didn’t go far enough east.

I think things would be a lot more peaceful today

Doubt it. I would fully expect a Cold War between the Axis and what remains of the Allies as the two battled over expansion into Africa, South America, and Asia.

[Rhodevus]

"Like any President, FDR’s foremost responsibility was to maintain the security of the United States against possible attack. Given the threats posed by fascist Germany and Japan, the relative size of our armed forces in comparison with other states and the reluctance of an “isolationist” Congress to authorize military expenditures in peacetime, this proved to be no easy task. Indeed, in June of 1939 the roughly 180,000-man US Army ranked 19th in the world-smaller than Portugal’s! To bolster America’s security, FDR not only called for an increase in the size of the nation’s military budget, and the repeal of the arms embargo provisions within the 1930s neutrality legislation, he also quietly sought to strengthen America’s ties with Great Britain-the one nation whose combined military, political and economic strength might serve as a bulwark against a possible Axis aggression in the Western Hemisphere.

Given the United States’ status today as the world’s lone superpower, it is hard for most Americans to imagine a time when we might look to Great Britain and the Royal Navy as America’s first line of defense; yet on the eve of the Second World War until well into the early 1940s, Great Britain’s combined military strength exceeded that of the United States."
-http://rooseveltinstitute.org/special-relationship-between-great-britain-and-united-states-began-fdr/

Essentiallt, the USA relied on great britain as the first line of defense against any European threat. FDR helped arm great britain and france because the nazis were seen as a legitimate threat to the US, and if they defeated Great Britain, then war could potentially reach North America. Better to send in some armaments and machines to help out, rather than face a potential war on home soil.

And yes, if you think back now, we wouldn't believe that Nazi germany would attack the USA. but at that time, it was a possibility.

[Kanadorika]

The Wikipedia link was included upon posting the OP.

But not attesting to the quoted section of the Daily Mail. You should never use the Daily Mail as a source. It's sensationalist clickbate. That's all I was telling you.

Actual sources back up what was included in the Daily Mail article, including a diary by one of the men who was there. It's hard to sensationalize a historical event of this type. Its inherently a sensational story.

[Strength and Order]

So if your country was invaded by an aggressive foreign power bent on expansion you wouldn't want anyone to help you out? Duly noted.

That's not what I am saying at all, my country wouldn't have been invaded in the first place because I wouldn't have gone around acting like a tough guy with a badass facade that makes me look like an idiot on an international scale.

So Czechoslovakia, Poland, Austria, China, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway were all "acting like tough guys with badass facades"? Interesting.

[Khataiy]

Yet again FDR armed the British and French for no reason and actively took steps to provoke Japan politically.

France and the UK are far more preferable neighbors than the Nazis were.

That's a matter of perspective, and one based on decades of post-WW2 education, history belongs to the victors so that's the only reason you'd be saying that, the truth is no one can know for sure if that's actually the case, because if America never got involved and the Nazis won we'd either be discussing today how we should have or how good it is that the US didn't, my personal theory is that things would be better if the US didn't.

[Sovaal]

It was George S. Patton, in his capacity as Military Governor of Bavaria, who dismissed the charges brought against the US soldiers responsible for the atrocious killings of SS guards at Dachau. He conveniently died in a car crash some time later. The next of kin of those killed, perhaps the German government, might bring charges either in Germany or the US. However, one assumes most if not all of the perpetrators have also conveniently expired.

Which raises the question, how many responsible for, or witnesses to, or complicit in, the massacre of millions of Jews, Gypsys, political resisters, Russians, POWs, homosexuals, individuals with disabilities, etc. etc. etc. have similarly escaped justice? How many responsible for numberless atrocities throughout history?

It's important and significant to remember what happened to the SS guards at Dachau. It's important and significant to resolve that such things not be allowed to happen again, or to go unpunished if they do (remember Mai Lai?).

But in the grand scheme of things we are arguing over a drop of blood in a bucketfull.

Mai also had a bunch of bastards who killed innocent men women’s ans children escape justice. These men killed murders who where responsible for the deaths of millions. I really can’t see a fucking moral equivalent here.

[Khataiy]

That's not what I am saying at all, my country wouldn't have been invaded in the first place because I wouldn't have gone around acting like a tough guy with a badass facade that makes me look like an idiot on an international scale.

So Czechoslovakia, Poland, Austria, China, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway were all "acting like tough guys with badass facades"? Interesting.

No they weren't and that's irrelevant because we are talking about FDR who made some really dumb choices in words.

[Dogmeat]

But not attesting to the quoted section of the Daily Mail. You should never use the Daily Mail as a source. It's sensationalist clickbate. That's all I was telling you.

Actual sources back up what was included in the Daily Mail article, including a diary by one of the men who was there. It's hard to sensationalize a historical event of this type. Its inherently a sensational story.

Again, I am not disputing your historicity. I'm saying "don't use them."

They're at best worthless, and often counterproductive.

[Sovaal]

France and the UK are far more preferable neighbors than the Nazis were.

That's a matter of perspective, and one based on decades of post-WW2 education, history belongs to the victors so that's the only reason you'd be saying that, the truth is no one can know for sure if that's actually the case, because if America never got involved and the Nazis won we'd either be discussing today how we should have or how good it is that the US didn't, my personal theory is that things would be better if the US didn't.

A fucking ‘matter of perspective’ if you’re a fucking white supremacist fascist maybe. And I serially doubt things would been better. A lot less Jews in Eurasia, which may be what you want.

[Bakery Hill]

France and the UK are far more preferable neighbors than the Nazis were.

That's a matter of perspective, and one based on decades of post-WW2 education, history belongs to the victors so that's the only reason you'd be saying that, the truth is no one can know for sure if that's actually the case, because if America never got involved and the Nazis won we'd either be discussing today how we should have or how good it is that the US didn't, my personal theory is that things would be better if the US didn't.

Your personal theory is very misinformed on a number of levels. But primarily it's probably your values that are the most warped.

[Strength and Order]

So Czechoslovakia, Poland, Austria, China, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark, and Norway were all "acting like tough guys with badass facades"? Interesting.

No they weren't and that's irrelevant because we are talking about FDR who made some really dumb choices in words.

No, we're talking about an appropriate response to unwarranted and blatant imperialism.

[Khataiy]

I think things would be a lot more peaceful today

Doubt it. I would fully expect a Cold War between the Axis and what remains of the Allies as the two battled over expansion into Africa, South America, and Asia.

The cold war occurred because the US empowered the Soviet Union, the development of atomic weapons by the US also added to the problems, in this scenario the US would have no need to develop atomic weapons because it wouldn't have been involved in the war, and the US wouldn't have had any issues in post war dividing and conquering like the way it did with the Soviets, there would have been no iron curtain, no arms race, and no proxy conflicts.

[Reutoa]

France and the UK are far more preferable neighbors than the Nazis were.

That's a matter of perspective, and one based on decades of post-WW2 education, history belongs to the victors so that's the only reason you'd be saying that, the truth is no one can know for sure if that's actually the case, because if America never got involved and the Nazis won we'd either be discussing today how we should have or how good it is that the US didn't, my personal theory is that things would be better if the US didn't.

I highly doubt everything would be all heaven over in Europe & Asia if the Axis had Militarily defeated the Allies, if anything the Axis would most likely start a Cold War with the remaining Allies and try take over the World.

[Kanadorika]

So if your country was invaded by an aggressive foreign power bent on expansion you wouldn't want anyone to help you out? Duly noted.

That's not what I am saying at all, my country wouldn't have been invaded in the first place because I wouldn't have gone around acting like a tough guy with a badass facade that makes me look like an idiot on an international scale.

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind." - Sir Arthur Harris

[Khataiy]

That's a matter of perspective, and one based on decades of post-WW2 education, history belongs to the victors so that's the only reason you'd be saying that, the truth is no one can know for sure if that's actually the case, because if America never got involved and the Nazis won we'd either be discussing today how we should have or how good it is that the US didn't, my personal theory is that things would be better if the US didn't.

Your personal theory is very misinformed on a number of levels. But primarily it's probably your values that are the most warped.

Being pragmatic and realistic is warped? I'm sorry I'm not an immature idiot with a trigger finger in the body of an old cripple.

[Bakery Hill]

Doubt it. I would fully expect a Cold War between the Axis and what remains of the Allies as the two battled over expansion into Africa, South America, and Asia.

The cold war occurred because the US empowered the Soviet Union, the development of atomic weapons by the US also added to the problems, in this scenario the US would have no need to develop atomic weapons because it wouldn't have been involved in the war, and the US wouldn't have had any issues in post war dividing and conquering like the way it did with the Soviets, there would have been no iron curtain, no arms race, and no proxy conflicts.

Yes. The Nazis would have amassed all the power and capabilities they could and demilitarised. There would be no conflict between two superpowers.

[Sovaal]

Doubt it. I would fully expect a Cold War between the Axis and what remains of the Allies as the two battled over expansion into Africa, South America, and Asia.

The cold war occurred because the US empowered the Soviet Union, the development of atomic weapons by the US also added to the problems, in this scenario the US would have no need to develop atomic weapons because it wouldn't have been involved in the war, and the US wouldn't have had any issues in post war dividing and conquering like the way it did with the Soviets, there would have been no iron curtain, no arms race, and no proxy conflicts.

The Manhattan project was well underway before 1941, and the Nazis as a similar project in the works as well. Honestly either your just in denial or purposefully trying to make the Nazis look better.

[Bakery Hill]

Your personal theory is very misinformed on a number of levels. But primarily it's probably your values that are the most warped.

Being pragmatic and realistic is warped? I'm sorry I'm not an immature idiot with a trigger finger in the body of an old cripple.

Actually thinking the world would be better if Generalplan Ost had been enacted is warped.

[Khataiy]

That's a matter of perspective, and one based on decades of post-WW2 education, history belongs to the victors so that's the only reason you'd be saying that, the truth is no one can know for sure if that's actually the case, because if America never got involved and the Nazis won we'd either be discussing today how we should have or how good it is that the US didn't, my personal theory is that things would be better if the US didn't.

I highly doubt everything would be all heaven over in Europe & Asia if the Axis had Militarily defeated the Allies, if anything the Axis would most likely start a Cold War with the remaining Allies and try take over the World.

Plausible but things to take into account would be the lack of American involvement in that cold war, as well as potential drifts after the death of Hitler in particular between Germany and Italy I think a cold war between Mussolini and Hitler would be more prevalent much like how after WW2 the Soviets and Americans drifted.