Democratic Socialism in the U.S and How to Pay for It?

[West Leas Oros 2]

Checkmate, socialists, people who advocate non-lobster-based societies are all phonies

Tbf I'm more of a crab guy myself.

The Crayfish are not pleased.

[Great Minarchistan]

Point being that capitalism rewards privileging the accumulation of capital over basic human rights (in your example, so as to avoid starvation.)

Hence securing basic human rights. Just because the United Nations gives you a 20-article list of what you're entitled to have, it doesn't mean that you can ever get them.

'Not that human rights are important' lol! Imagine thinking that each nation has a special right to define which human rights are important within the arbitrary imaginary lines that define their territory.

Human rights are secured by international treaties (with the UN, mainly) which are of second importance and can be easily broken. Fundamental and natural rights, on the other hand, are inherent to the Constitution and recent customary developments of the country, both of which are more resilient. Law 101.

You're not supposed to base your political philosophy off Frank Underwood (who in any case is a second-rate Francis Urquhart.) I think you misunderstood that show.

It's just a nice snip to finish a post whose intent is to show you that basic life conditions aren't secured through a decree, rather by capital accumulation and development of means to improve people's lives.

[Thanatttynia]

Checkmate, socialists, people who advocate non-lobster-based societies are all phonies

Tbf I'm more of a crab guy myself.

Funnily enough, human society can probably be better explained by crab behaviour than lobster behaviour, yes, what with the crab mentality displayed by many people. What all of these analogies and metaphors can't do, however, is account for the higher order of thinking and the morality humans are capable of when compared to crustaceans.

[Torrocca]

>TFW self-governance isn't governance

oof



Gee it might have to do with the lack of worker rights being afforded to workers? Who'd'a thunk?

Not effective governance, no. It sounds ironic, coming from a “fookin demsoc”, but I am of the belief that anarchism is inevitably doomed to failure because, news flash, it turns out that in the absence of a real authority, people generally do some shitty things.

A reminder that Anarchists aren't against rules, just rulers.

[Torrocca]

Someone's mistaking who murdered who, take off your bias glasses :^)

The Battle of Blair Mountain was the largest labor uprising in United States history and one of the largest, best-organized, and most well-armed uprisings since the American Civil War.[3]

The conflict occurred in Logan County, West Virginia, as part of the Coal Wars, a series of early-20th-century labor disputes in Appalachia. Tensions rose between workers and mine management, and for five days from late August to early September 1921, some 10,000 armed coal miners confronted 3,000 lawmen and strikebreakers, called the Logan Defenders,[4] who were backed by coal mine operators during the miners' attempt to unionize the southwestern West Virginia coalfields. The battle ended after approximately one million rounds were fired[5] and the United States Army intervened by presidential order.[6]

The Ludlow Massacre was a labor conflict: the Colorado National Guard and Colorado Fuel and Iron Company guards attacked a tent colony of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families at Ludlow, Colorado, on April 20, 1914, with the National Guard using machine guns to fire into the colony.

"I-it was all the government! Pay no attention to the Pinkertons!"

[West Leas Oros 2]

Not effective governance, no. It sounds ironic, coming from a “fookin demsoc”, but I am of the belief that anarchism is inevitably doomed to failure because, news flash, it turns out that in the absence of a real authority, people generally do some shitty things.

A reminder that Anarchists aren't against rules, just rulers.

And how do you plan on enforcing those rules?

[Great Minarchistan]

"I-it was all the government! Pay no attention to the Pinkertons!"

For some weird reason the private reaction was noted to being limited to peaceful/non-lethal methods in order to reestablish order. It was the government, not evil cappies, who fired machine guns towards the strikes :^)

[Torrocca]

A reminder that Anarchists aren't against rules, just rulers.

And how do you plan on enforcing those rules?

The community would collectively enforce them, duh.

[Torrocca]

"I-it was all the government! Pay no attention to the Pinkertons!"

For some weird reason the private reaction was noted to being limited to peaceful/non-lethal methods in order to reestablish order. It was the government, not evil cappies, who fired machine guns towards the strikes :^)

"On May 19, 1920, 12 Baldwin-Felts agents, including Lee Felts, arrived in Matewan, West Virginia and promptly met with Albert Felts, who was already in the area. Albert and Lee were the brothers of Thomas Felts, the co-owner and director of the agency. Albert had already been in the area and had tried to bribe Mayor Testerman with $500 to place machine guns on roofs in the town; Testerman refused.[7] That afternoon Albert and Lee along with 11 other men set out to the Stone Mountain Coal Co. property. The first family they evicted was a woman and her children; the woman's husband was not home at the time. They forced them out at gunpoint and threw their belongings in the road under a light but steady rain. The miners who saw it were furious, and sent word to town.[8]

As the agents walked to the train station to leave town, Police Chief Sid Hatfield and a group of deputized miners confronted them and told them they were under arrest. Albert Felts replied that in fact he had a warrant for Hatfield's arrest.[9] Testerman was alerted, and he ran out into the street after a miner shouted that Sid had been arrested. Hatfield backed into the store and Testerman asked to see the warrant. After reviewing it, the mayor exclaimed, "This is a bogus warrant." With these words, a gunfight erupted and Hatfield shot Albert Felts. Testerman and Albert and Lee Felts were among the ten men killed (three from the town and seven from the agency).[9]

This gunfight became known as the Matewan Massacre, and its symbolic significance was enormous for the miners. The seemingly invincible Baldwin-Felts had been beaten.[10] Sid Hatfield became an immediate legend and hero to the union miners, and a symbol of hope that the oppression of coal operators and their hired guns could be overthrown.[11] Throughout the summer and into the fall of 1920 the union gained strength in Mingo County, as did the resistance of the coal operators. Low-intensity warfare was waged up and down the Tug River. In late June state police under the command of Captain Brockus raided the Lick Creek tent colony near Williamson. Miners were said to have fired on Brockus and Martin's men from the colony, and in response the state police shot and arrested miners, ripped the canvas tents to shreds and scattered the mining families' belongings.[12] Both sides were bolstering their arms, and Sid Hatfield continued to be a problem, especially when he converted Testerman's jewelry store into a gun shop.[13]

On January 26, 1921, the trial of Hatfield for killing Albert Felts began. It was in the national spotlight and brought much attention to the miners' cause. Hatfield's stature and mythical status grew as the trial proceeded. He posed and talked to reporters, fanning the flames of his own legend. All men were acquitted in the end, but overall the union was facing significant setbacks.[14] Eighty percent of mines had reopened with the importation of replacements and the signing of yellow-dog contracts by ex-strikers returning to the mines.[15] In mid-May 1921 union miners launched a full-scale assault on non-union mines. In a short time the conflict had consumed the entire Tug River Valley. This "Three Days Battle" was finally ended by a flag of truce and the implementation of martial law.[16] From the beginning, the miners perceived the enforcement of martial law as one-sided.[17] Hundreds of miners were arrested; the smallest of infractions could mean imprisonment, while those on the side of "law and order" were seen as immune.[18] The miners responded with guerrilla tactics and violence.[18]

In the midst of this tense situation, Hatfield traveled to McDowell County on 1 August 1921 to stand trial on charges of dynamiting a coal tipple. Along with him traveled a good friend, Ed Chambers, and their wives.[19] As they walked up the courthouse stairs, unarmed and flanked by their wives, a group of Baldwin-Felts agents standing at the top of the stairs opened fire. Hatfield was killed instantly. Chambers was bullet-riddled and rolled to the bottom of the stairs. Despite Sally Chambers' protests, one of the agents ran down the stairs and shot Chambers once more,-point blank in the back of the head.[20] Hatfield's and Chambers' bodies were returned to Matewan, and word of the slayings spread through the mountains."

SO MUCH FOR PEACEFUL PRIVATE SECURITY OPERATIVES AMIRITE

[Thanatttynia]

Point being that capitalism rewards privileging the accumulation of capital over basic human rights (in your example, so as to avoid starvation.)

Hence securing basic human rights. Just because the United Nations gives you a 20-article list of what you're entitled to have, it doesn't mean that you can ever get them.

But you can get those rights, even under capitalism.

'Not that human rights are important' lol! Imagine thinking that each nation has a special right to define which human rights are important within the arbitrary imaginary lines that define their territory.

Human rights are secured by international treaties (with the UN, mainly) which are of second importance and can be easily broken. Fundamental and natural rights, on the other hand, are inherent to the Constitution and recent customary developments of the country, both of which are more resilient. Law 101.

People intent on breaking them will find a way. My point, though, was that if you believe in natural rights then you should also believe that the constitutions of individual countries have absolutely no bearing on the rights that we have, only whether those rights will be respected.

You're not supposed to base your political philosophy off Frank Underwood (who in any case is a second-rate Francis Urquhart.) I think you misunderstood that show.

It's just a nice snip to finish a post whose intent is to show you that basic life conditions aren't secured through a decree, rather by capital accumulation and development of means to improve people's lives.

Basic life conditions are achieved by other people respecting the basic life conditions you're entitled to. Capital accumulation doesn't come into it. Stop trying to inject economics where they're not relevant.

[West Leas Oros 2]

And how do you plan on enforcing those rules?

The community would collectively enforce them, duh.

I doubt the community would do an effective job of it, unless you want most crimes to be punished by execution via firing squad.

[Torrocca]

The community would collectively enforce them, duh.

I doubt the community would do an effective job of it, unless you want most crimes to be punished by execution via firing squad.

It wouldn't be that hard for the community to organize itself to prevent/react to major incidents, such as murder or rape or whathaveyou. Beyond that, most crimes would disappear anyway, since the anarchist model (homes for everyone, mutual aid, etc. etc. etc.) would ensure everyone has a decent life, which the lack thereof leads to such crimes to begin with.

[Great Minarchistan]

For some weird reason the private reaction was noted to being limited to peaceful/non-lethal methods in order to reestablish order. It was the government, not evil cappies, who fired machine guns towards the strikes :^)

"On May 19, 1920, 12 Baldwin-Felts agents, including Lee Felts, arrived in Matewan, West Virginia and promptly met with Albert Felts, who was already in the area. Albert and Lee were the brothers of Thomas Felts, the co-owner and director of the agency. Albert had already been in the area and had tried to bribe Mayor Testerman with $500 to place machine guns on roofs in the town; Testerman refused.[7] That afternoon Albert and Lee along with 11 other men set out to the Stone Mountain Coal Co. property. The first family they evicted was a woman and her children; the woman's husband was not home at the time. They forced them out at gunpoint and threw their belongings in the road under a light but steady rain. The miners who saw it were furious, and sent word to town.[8]

As the agents walked to the train station to leave town, Police Chief Sid Hatfield and a group of deputized miners confronted them and told them they were under arrest. Albert Felts replied that in fact he had a warrant for Hatfield's arrest.[9] Testerman was alerted, and he ran out into the street after a miner shouted that Sid had been arrested. Hatfield backed into the store and Testerman asked to see the warrant. After reviewing it, the mayor exclaimed, "This is a bogus warrant." With these words, a gunfight erupted and Hatfield shot Albert Felts. Testerman and Albert and Lee Felts were among the ten men killed (three from the town and seven from the agency).[9]

This gunfight became known as the Matewan Massacre, and its symbolic significance was enormous for the miners. The seemingly invincible Baldwin-Felts had been beaten.[10] Sid Hatfield became an immediate legend and hero to the union miners, and a symbol of hope that the oppression of coal operators and their hired guns could be overthrown.[11] Throughout the summer and into the fall of 1920 the union gained strength in Mingo County, as did the resistance of the coal operators. Low-intensity warfare was waged up and down the Tug River. In late June state police under the command of Captain Brockus raided the Lick Creek tent colony near Williamson. Miners were said to have fired on Brockus and Martin's men from the colony, and in response the state police shot and arrested miners, ripped the canvas tents to shreds and scattered the mining families' belongings.[12] Both sides were bolstering their arms, and Sid Hatfield continued to be a problem, especially when he converted Testerman's jewelry store into a gun shop.[13]

On January 26, 1921, the trial of Hatfield for killing Albert Felts began. It was in the national spotlight and brought much attention to the miners' cause. Hatfield's stature and mythical status grew as the trial proceeded. He posed and talked to reporters, fanning the flames of his own legend. All men were acquitted in the end, but overall the union was facing significant setbacks.[14] Eighty percent of mines had reopened with the importation of replacements and the signing of yellow-dog contracts by ex-strikers returning to the mines.[15] In mid-May 1921 union miners launched a full-scale assault on non-union mines. In a short time the conflict had consumed the entire Tug River Valley. This "Three Days Battle" was finally ended by a flag of truce and the implementation of martial law.[16] From the beginning, the miners perceived the enforcement of martial law as one-sided.[17] Hundreds of miners were arrested; the smallest of infractions could mean imprisonment, while those on the side of "law and order" were seen as immune.[18] The miners responded with guerrilla tactics and violence.[18]

In the midst of this tense situation, Hatfield traveled to McDowell County on 1 August 1921 to stand trial on charges of dynamiting a coal tipple. Along with him traveled a good friend, Ed Chambers, and their wives.[19] As they walked up the courthouse stairs, unarmed and flanked by their wives, a group of Baldwin-Felts agents standing at the top of the stairs opened fire. Hatfield was killed instantly. Chambers was bullet-riddled and rolled to the bottom of the stairs. Despite Sally Chambers' protests, one of the agents ran down the stairs and shot Chambers once more,-point blank in the back of the head.[20] Hatfield's and Chambers' bodies were returned to Matewan, and word of the slayings spread through the mountains."

SO MUCH FOR PEACEFUL PRIVATE SECURITY OPERATIVES AMIRITE

The police guard shot the private agents, not the contrary :^)

[West Leas Oros 2]

I doubt the community would do an effective job of it, unless you want most crimes to be punished by execution via firing squad.

It wouldn't be that hard for the community to organize itself to prevent/react to major incidents, such as murder or rape or whathaveyou. Beyond that, most crimes would disappear anyway, since the anarchist model (homes for everyone, mutual aid, etc. etc. etc.) would ensure everyone has a decent life, which the lack thereof leads to such crimes to begin with.

Yeah, this sounds about as realistic as Narnia.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Human rights are secured by international treaties (with the UN, mainly) which are of second importance and can be easily broken. Fundamental and natural rights, on the other hand, are inherent to the Constitution and recent customary developments of the country, both of which are more resilient. Law 101.

People intent on breaking them will find a way. My point, though, was that if you believe in natural rights then you should also believe that the constitutions of individual countries have absolutely no bearing on the rights that we have, only whether those rights will be respected.

National constitutions are a poor measure of their human rights. For example, the Constitution of North Korea grants North Koreans the right to freedom of expression, a fair trial, the right to elect officials, freedom of demonstration and association, etc. - in practice North Korea does not respect these rights at all.

[Torrocca]

"On May 19, 1920, 12 Baldwin-Felts agents, including Lee Felts, arrived in Matewan, West Virginia and promptly met with Albert Felts, who was already in the area. Albert and Lee were the brothers of Thomas Felts, the co-owner and director of the agency. Albert had already been in the area and had tried to bribe Mayor Testerman with $500 to place machine guns on roofs in the town; Testerman refused.[7] That afternoon Albert and Lee along with 11 other men set out to the Stone Mountain Coal Co. property. The first family they evicted was a woman and her children; the woman's husband was not home at the time. They forced them out at gunpoint and threw their belongings in the road under a light but steady rain. The miners who saw it were furious, and sent word to town.[8]

As the agents walked to the train station to leave town, Police Chief Sid Hatfield and a group of deputized miners confronted them and told them they were under arrest. Albert Felts replied that in fact he had a warrant for Hatfield's arrest.[9] Testerman was alerted, and he ran out into the street after a miner shouted that Sid had been arrested. Hatfield backed into the store and Testerman asked to see the warrant. After reviewing it, the mayor exclaimed, "This is a bogus warrant." With these words, a gunfight erupted and Hatfield shot Albert Felts. Testerman and Albert and Lee Felts were among the ten men killed (three from the town and seven from the agency).[9]

This gunfight became known as the Matewan Massacre, and its symbolic significance was enormous for the miners. The seemingly invincible Baldwin-Felts had been beaten.[10] Sid Hatfield became an immediate legend and hero to the union miners, and a symbol of hope that the oppression of coal operators and their hired guns could be overthrown.[11] Throughout the summer and into the fall of 1920 the union gained strength in Mingo County, as did the resistance of the coal operators. Low-intensity warfare was waged up and down the Tug River. In late June state police under the command of Captain Brockus raided the Lick Creek tent colony near Williamson. Miners were said to have fired on Brockus and Martin's men from the colony, and in response the state police shot and arrested miners, ripped the canvas tents to shreds and scattered the mining families' belongings.[12] Both sides were bolstering their arms, and Sid Hatfield continued to be a problem, especially when he converted Testerman's jewelry store into a gun shop.[13]

On January 26, 1921, the trial of Hatfield for killing Albert Felts began. It was in the national spotlight and brought much attention to the miners' cause. Hatfield's stature and mythical status grew as the trial proceeded. He posed and talked to reporters, fanning the flames of his own legend. All men were acquitted in the end, but overall the union was facing significant setbacks.[14] Eighty percent of mines had reopened with the importation of replacements and the signing of yellow-dog contracts by ex-strikers returning to the mines.[15] In mid-May 1921 union miners launched a full-scale assault on non-union mines. In a short time the conflict had consumed the entire Tug River Valley. This "Three Days Battle" was finally ended by a flag of truce and the implementation of martial law.[16] From the beginning, the miners perceived the enforcement of martial law as one-sided.[17] Hundreds of miners were arrested; the smallest of infractions could mean imprisonment, while those on the side of "law and order" were seen as immune.[18] The miners responded with guerrilla tactics and violence.[18]

In the midst of this tense situation, Hatfield traveled to McDowell County on 1 August 1921 to stand trial on charges of dynamiting a coal tipple. Along with him traveled a good friend, Ed Chambers, and their wives.[19] As they walked up the courthouse stairs, unarmed and flanked by their wives, a group of Baldwin-Felts agents standing at the top of the stairs opened fire. Hatfield was killed instantly. Chambers was bullet-riddled and rolled to the bottom of the stairs. Despite Sally Chambers' protests, one of the agents ran down the stairs and shot Chambers once more,-point blank in the back of the head.[20] Hatfield's and Chambers' bodies were returned to Matewan, and word of the slayings spread through the mountains."

SO MUCH FOR PEACEFUL PRIVATE SECURITY OPERATIVES AMIRITE

The police guard shot the private agents, not the contrary :^)

No proof, also gg ignoring the second part where they assassinated two people at a courthouse :^)

Also, from the Ludlow Massacre:

"When leasing the sites, the union had strategically selected tent locations near the mouths of canyons that led to the coal camps, for the purpose of blocking any strikebreakers' traffic.[23] Confrontations between striking miners and working miners, referred to as "scabs" by the union, sometimes resulted in deaths. The company hired the Baldwin–Felts Detective Agency to protect the new workers and harass the strikers.

Baldwin–Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and fired bullets into the tents at random, occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a machine gun the union called the "Death Special" to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the Colorado Fuel & Iron Company plant in Pueblo, Colorado from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Frequent sniper attacks on the tent colonies drove the miners to dig pits beneath the tents where they and their families could be better protected. Armed battles also occurred between (mostly Greek) strikers and sheriffs recently deputized to suppress the strike, thus earning the title "Colorado Coalfield War."[24]"

[Torrocca]

It wouldn't be that hard for the community to organize itself to prevent/react to major incidents, such as murder or rape or whathaveyou. Beyond that, most crimes would disappear anyway, since the anarchist model (homes for everyone, mutual aid, etc. etc. etc.) would ensure everyone has a decent life, which the lack thereof leads to such crimes to begin with.

Yeah, this sounds about as realistic as Narnia.

I mean, if you go into more in-depth arguments for why it'd work (Such as Kropotkin's Mutual Aid) you'd be more inclined to see where I'm coming from with this.

[Great Minarchistan]

But you can get those rights, even under capitalism.

Mainly under capitalism, whose trend of natural capital accumulation soon trickles down into better life conditions for the working class.

People intent on breaking them will find a way. My point, though, was that if you believe in natural rights then you should also believe that the constitutions of individual countries have absolutely no bearing on the rights that we have, only whether those rights will be respected.

If you knew what natural rights were, then you would conclude that natural rights are inherently negative by their nature, as opposed to positive rights where the government/someone is mandated to provide X for you.

Basic life conditions are achieved by other people respecting the basic life conditions you're entitled to. Capital accumulation doesn't come into it. Stop trying to inject economics where they're not relevant.

Good luck living on a shack or sleeping while looking at the bare sky since capital accumulation is so irrelevant. The state of nature isn't 3000kcal a day and a 50" flatscreen, it's hypothermia with 0kcal a day. If you want a high gdp lifestyle then get a high gdp yourself.

[Ifreann]

Tbf I'm more of a crab guy myself.

The Crayfish are not pleased.

[Great Minarchistan]

No proof, also gg ignoring the second part where they assassinated two people at a courthouse :^)

Did you mean: tit-for-tat? :^)

[Torrocca]

No proof, also gg ignoring the second part where they assassinated two people at a courthouse :^)

Did you mean: tit-for-tat? :^)

Did you mean: "It's okay to murder people so long as they're striking workers because they're not actually people and only if private security forces do it because government violence is bad but private violence is good :^)"?

[Great Minarchistan]

Did you mean: tit-for-tat? :^)

Did you mean: "It's okay to murder people so long as they're striking workers because they're not actually people and only if private security forces do it because government violence is bad but private violence is good :^)"?

The fresh smell of straw in the morning.

[Torrocca]

Did you mean: "It's okay to murder people so long as they're striking workers because they're not actually people and only if private security forces do it because government violence is bad but private violence is good :^)"?

The fresh smell of straw in the morning.

Doesn't seem like straw at all when you've gone out of your way to defend the private groups that committed massacres on behalf of business owners.

[Great Minarchistan]

The fresh smell of straw in the morning.

Doesn't seem like straw at all when you've gone out of your way to defend the private groups that committed massacres on behalf of business owners.

It'd be good for the sake of discussion for you to search on the term "tit-for-tat".

[Torrocca]

Doesn't seem like straw at all when you've gone out of your way to defend the private groups that committed massacres on behalf of business owners.

It'd be good for the sake of discussion for you to search on the term "tit-for-tat".

I was talking about this, FYI:

"I-it was all the government! Pay no attention to the Pinkertons!"

For some weird reason the private reaction was noted to being limited to peaceful/non-lethal methods in order to reestablish order. It was the government, not evil cappies, who fired machine guns towards the strikes :^)

But let's not let facts, such as your defense of hired guns committing murders against striking workers, override feels here.