Delaware bans Conversion Therapy

[Des-Bal]

Hold on, I have to sort through the literally thousands of accounts of torture going on in those programs.

I can't see why. You're arguing the practice is necessarily torture, sorting accounts would really only provide some evidence that torture as a concept exists in the world.

[Hrythingia]

Again, explain why this is ‘torture’?

Hold on, I have to sort through the literally thousands of accounts of torture going on in those programs.

Go on then.

[The South Falls]

So is child abuse (physical, sexual, or otherwise). Doesn't mean either should be legally tolerated, and for the same reason.

And this is equatable to abuse because...?

For one, increased suicide risks. Use of electric shocks and other torture. Etc. Etc etc.

[Des-Bal]

Yeah, seeing as I don't have medical training, and modern medicine is pretty frickin' miraculous, I'm willing to accept that, even knowing that doctors and shrinks don't know everything and are still learning new and unexpected things all the time. Just saying "argument from authority!!!" when someone is actually citing, you know, a reputable authority with vast expertise, is really quite silly.


No, I'm describing child abuse and psychological warfare methods used by one of the world's most feared secret police agencies, both of which drive and drove people to suicide or caused or exacerbated serious mental health problems.

When someone is citing a source with evidence that does not support their claims and replying to critique of it with "but they're doctors" is exactly what argument from authority is.

No, you're taking wild leaps of logic to turn Chai Tea into Stasi torture. I decline to accept that ANY attempt to change a person's sexuality is necessarily abuse, that a practice is not helpful for mental illness isn't sufficient.

[Hrythingia]

And this is equatable to abuse because...?

For one, increased suicide risks. Use of electric shocks and other torture. Etc. Etc etc.

Suicide is a potential and highly dubious result not a method. How someone is left after an operation isn’t necessarily too telling of its methods. Those electric shocks are not lethal nor are they designed to cause harm for the sake of it. So that’s not torture either.

[Senkaku]

No, you're taking wild leaps of logic to turn Chai Tea into Stasi torture.

Hey, you're the one who was saying that psychological damage doesn't equate to torture or abuse.

After all, I'm sure there were a multitude of other contributing factors that would contribute to the mental breakdowns and suicides that targets of Zersetzung methods suffered, right? We can't be too quick to attribute those to the Stasi's actions. :^)

I decline to accept that ANY attempt to change a person's sexuality is necessarily abuse,

Then you decline to accept that psychological and emotional trauma are real things which can be suffered.
[/quote] that a practice is not helpful for mental illness isn't sufficient.[/quote]
And by "not helpful", you mean a principle factor in the suicide of thousands of LGBT youth, right?

Anyways, you're the one theorizing that a "harmless" conversion therapy practice could exist- why don't you find some examples in reality where all they do is give you some chai and chitchat about the weather?

[Grenartia]

Again, explain why this is ‘torture’?

Hold on, I have to sort through the literally thousands of accounts of torture going on in those programs.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/24/opinion/gay-conversion-therapy-torture.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/realities-of-conversion-therapy_us_582b6cf2e4b01d8a014aea66

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/health/dr-robert-l-spitzer-noted-psychiatrist-apologizes-for-study-on-gay-cure.html

Even Exodus International (probably the largest ex-gay org there was) was forced to apologize and disband after shilling for this practice for decades, and seeing their efforts not only fail to achieve their goals, but actively cause severe psychological trauma to its victims, including children.

Only a misanthrope would think that shipping a child off to the fundie answer to the Hanoi Hilton, or that theater from A Clockwork Orange, or even "just" playing the most disgusting mindgames with them could possibly be a good thing. That shit has directly caused countless youth suicides, and at least that many adult suicides.

[The South Falls]

For one, increased suicide risks. Use of electric shocks and other torture. Etc. Etc etc.

Suicide is a potential and highly dubious result not a method. How someone is left after an operation isn’t necessarily too telling of its methods. Those electric shocks are not lethal nor are they designed to cause harm for the sake of it. So that’s not torture either.

They still cause harm though. Against someone's will. Continually.

[Grenartia]

For one, increased suicide risks. Use of electric shocks and other torture. Etc. Etc etc.

Suicide is a potential and highly dubious result not a method. How someone is left after an operation isn’t necessarily too telling of its methods. Those electric shocks are not lethal nor are they designed to cause harm for the sake of it. So that’s not torture either.

Are you fucking kidding me? There's not a single claim you made in that post that can even remotely be described as "true".

[Grenartia]

Suicide is a potential and highly dubious result not a method. How someone is left after an operation isn’t necessarily too telling of its methods. Those electric shocks are not lethal nor are they designed to cause harm for the sake of it. So that’s not torture either.

They still cause harm though. Against someone's will. Continually.

If I were to repeatedly taser Hrythingia's genitals for suggesting conversion therapy isn't torture, until they admit that it is, by their own twisted logic, I would not be guilty of torture.

[Des-Bal]

Hey, you're the one who was saying that psychological damage doesn't equate to torture or abuse.

After all, I'm sure there were a multitude of other contributing factors that would contribute to the mental breakdowns and suicides that targets of Zersetzung methods suffered, right? We can't be too quick to attribute those to the Stasi's actions. :^)

Then you decline to accept that psychological and emotional trauma are real things which can be suffered.

And by "not helpful", you mean a principle factor in the suicide of thousands of LGBT youth, right?

Anyways, you're the one theorizing that a "harmless" conversion therapy practice could exist- why don't you find some examples in reality where all they do is give you some chai and chitchat about the weather?

Will you shut about the Stasi? I never said torture required physical damage I said that it's not a fundamental impossibility for conversion therapy that does not cause egregious harm to exist.

What's the suicide rate? If it's like 90% I'll agree with you that it's egregious.

I'm not going to show you examples because that would have nothing to do with my point. Abusive practices in service to methods unsupported by science are bad, if there's no egregious harm then I don't see why taking the incorrect thing they're doing any more seriously than alternative medicine.

[Thermodolia]

This makes about as much sense as saying that since crime rates are dropping, new legislation to further reduce them and to protect people is "meaningless virtue-signaling."

This is not completely meaningless, it's a considerable step forward for human rights.

Banning a voluntary procedure that's already dying is a "considerable step forward for human rights"?

It’s not voluntary. Especially for those who are under the age of 18. Which is why I tell people to not come out until they are an adult

[Gaine Moon]

And just like that all of the world's problems were solved.

I wish...

[San Lumen]

It causes harm to those that undergo it. Sexual orientation cannot be changed. Why should children and teens who cannot give consent and thus forced into by bigoted parents be subject to potential irreparable harm?

Sexual orientation is a peculiar thing. It would seem indeed that people by means of an unfortunate natural glitch are more susceptible to the aesthetics of the same sex. The extent to which they embark upon this preference is entirely dependant upon their atmosphere and culture. Therefore, I would argue it can be changed.. to a certain degree.

But more importantly, pray tell, what harm are you taking of?

It cannot be changed. It is not a choice. The harm can be physical, emotional and psychological

[USS Monitor]

Good. I wish Massachusetts would do this too.

[San Lumen]

Good. I wish Massachusetts would do this too.

You would think one of the most liberal states in the union would have done soon already. Im honestly shocked they haven't. That not even Boston has made in illegal. There is a bill that recently passed the lower house of the legislature though. Its currently under consideration in the Senate.Here is the link: https://malegislature.gov/Bills/190/H4664

I wish my state would make it illegal. It has been banned in locally in a few places, Erie County (Buffalo is the county seat), Albany (our capital) and Albany County, New York City and Ulster County.

It did pass the Assembly but has not been taken up in the Senate.

[USS Monitor]

Good. I wish Massachusetts would do this too.

You would think one of the most liberal states in the union would have done soon already. Im honestly shocked they haven't. That not even Boston has made in illegal. There is a bill that recently passed the lower house of the legislature though. Its currently under consideration in the Senate.Here is the link: https://malegislature.gov/Bills/190/H4664

Yeah, you'd think so. State legislators need to get their butts in gear.

[San Lumen]

You would think one of the most liberal states in the union would have done soon already. Im honestly shocked they haven't. That not even Boston has made in illegal. There is a bill that recently passed the lower house of the legislature though. Its currently under consideration in the Senate.Here is the link: https://malegislature.gov/Bills/190/H4664

Yeah, you'd think so. State legislators need to get their butts in gear.

Clearly. I can't fathom why the state that wad the first to allow same sex marriage and adoption has not banned this barbarism. Plus the city of Rochester in New York passed a ordinance today to ban conversion therapy. I wish my state would ban it too.

https://13wham.com/news/local/rochester ... ms-of-note

[Prydania]

I think it's very telling. How only a few people seem to actually be defending conversion therapy.

Most people are happy about this, with even the most vocal "detractors" for this, even begrudgingly. Because G-d forbid they actually agree with a "lib" on anything

[San Lumen]

I think it's very telling. How only a few people seem to actually be defending conversion therapy.

Most people are happy about this, with even the most vocal "detractors" for this, even begrudgingly. Because G-d forbid they actually agree with a "lib" on anything

Its also like they are committing a moral sin to agree with the other side on something

[Mystic Warriors]

A single light threw the dark ages we are in.

[San Lumen]

A single light threw the dark ages we are in.

The force always finds balance my young padawan.

[Terra Novae Libero]

More states should do this as conversion therapy has been viewed by the vast majority of psychological and psychiatric organizations as complete bunk since the mid-2000s.

So, hypothetically, if future research made conversion therapy possible, would you still support a ban?

[Uiiop]

A single light threw the dark ages we are in.

The force always finds balance my young padawan.

Only siths deal in absolutes.

[Martian Alliance]

If sexual orientation is such a simple "choice", why does someone who doesn't want to be gay have to go through the whole conversion process anyway?