NationStates

Hrythingia wrote:

Senkaku wrote:Once again- this bill bans certified mental health professionals from practicing this quackery on minors. It doesn't tell adults they can't go do something that will be bad for them if they really want to.

Then in that case it’s the parents choice.

We don't generally let parents torture their kids in civilized societies, though this practice remains a disturbing exception to that rule in many places.

San Marlindo wrote:

Senkaku wrote:I mean you're not applauding it, you're in line with the people railing against it who justify their opposition to it with complaints that it's just a cynical ploy by leaders who don't really care to secure their own power by pandering to their base.

I'm railing against the cynical leadership not the legislation. I think it's pandering and virtue-signalling, but that doesn't mean I think the legislation was antithetical to progress.

Pointing out that it's incomplete and could go further on a different issue seems perfectly reasonable. Joining the reactionaries in tearing down the whole thing seems rather less so, especially from someone who it sounds like has a deep personal interest in the issue.

On the first part- I doubt it, given the influence that some cults (@Scientology) hold and the trickiness of interfering with religion and with the actions of adults rather than minors. On the second front- that makes sense, but it might be worth it to get in touch with your state legislator (...if you live in a blue state, anyways, no red state will ever do anything like this, much less go further ) or whatnot.

We've tried. Others have tried. For decades. Suing the deprogramming centers, suing the state, suing psychiatrists. There is no justice, partly because the public - including most jurors - have been misled to believe cult deprogramming is necessary in most cases, because they think of Jim Jones or Scientology when they think cult. No sympathy for the victims or respect for their religious beliefs.

...I think I misunderstood lmao, I thought you were talking about cults "deprogramming" their followers to coerce them into being more obedient, not post-cult deprogramming (don't get me wrong, I've no doubt it's just as brutal, since "programming" humans always is). But that must be an even tinier group of people, no? The ones who go into groups like the Hare Krishnas and then come out and are deprogrammed?

a) this one group receives a disproportionate amount of media coverage and attention from the electorate, while others do not. Therefore, legislators in states like Hawaii and Delaware only care about one kind of conversion therapy affecting this group.

"Disproportionate amount of media coverage and attention from the electorate"- what a delicate euphemism lol. Your phrasing is certainly quite artful, I'll give you that much.

Hrythingia wrote:

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:
LGBT committing suicide, for one. And I tried “ex-gay therapy”, and did not do jack fucking shit. The mental health community also states that sexual orientation CANNOT BE CHANGED. By the way, I did not start liking boys until I got to Catholic school. So all that conservative Catholic education did not take those “ebil gay thoughts away”

The LGBT (plus whatever else they’re chucking on to the end of that never ending thing) suffers from suicide rates for a multitude of reasons. I don’t think attempted therapy is one. It’s more due to issues of rejection, attention, isolation and confusion.
Sexual orientation cannot be fundamentally changed however it can be shifted I believe.

I also went to a catholic school, a boarding school no less so I know what that’s all about. No one says it’s ‘ebil’ it’s simply your choice whether or not to act on those impulses.

So, it’s either trusting you, or the American Psychological Association, hmmm. Why should I take your word over mental health professionals? And yes, LGBT people commit suicide at a higher rate and attending “ex-gay therapy” increase their risk.

Good for Delaware.

Des-Bal wrote:

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:Most “ex-gay therapy” is based on religion and/or the stereotype that gay men are not masculine enough and/or the fact that gay men hate their father. Two last two did not apply to me, so I took the religious route. Did not do jack shit.

Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood my question. I didn't ask for exceedingly spartan anectdotal evidence that 1/3 of "most" therapies don't work on you. I asked if Chai Tea twice a week to change a person's sexuality would be "egregiously harmful"

Yes, it would (particularly if parents forced their child to do it, which is what this bill is expressly intended to combat). Making someone feel guilt and shame and that their sexuality is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed can, understandably, contribute to or exacerbate mental health problems. Just because it's not electroshock therapy or beatings doesn't mean it's okay, that makes about as much sense as saying that the Stasi's Zersetzung methods didn't actually hurt anyone. Were they supposed to cause physical harm? No, they were about causing psychological damage, it's in the damn name.

Vassenor wrote:So we're doing the whataboutism tango?

Ah, but we're pretending that we actually support the measure and just wish it went further, and only using the most delicate of euphemisms and highest-pitched dog whistles when we're firing back at the gays and their "disproportionate coverage and attention from the electorate", apparently.

Senkaku wrote:

Des-Bal wrote:
Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood my question. I didn't ask for exceedingly spartan anectdotal evidence that 1/3 of "most" therapies don't work on you. I asked if Chai Tea twice a week to change a person's sexuality would be "egregiously harmful"

Yes, it would (particularly if parents forced their child to do it, which is what this bill is expressly intended to combat). Making someone feel guilt and shame and that their sexuality is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed can, understandably, contribute to or exacerbate mental health problems. Just because it's not electroshock therapy or beatings doesn't mean it's okay, that makes about as much sense as saying that the Stasi's Zersetzung methods didn't actually hurt anyone. Were they supposed to cause physical harm? No, they were about causing psychological damage, it's in the damn name.

Hell, I’m against the ban since I’m a Libertarian, but the denial of the harm caused by conversion therapy is like anti-vaxxers denying the benefits of vaccines. It’s a denial of what the mainstream mental health community has stated. All because they don’t like the idea of two dudes having butt sex.

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:
Yes, it would be. The mental health community has stated that any attempt to change one’s sexual orientation is harmful. Since it appears you don’t have the ability to use Google search, I found this article from the APA for you. It pays to research something before opening your mouth to give an opinion.

http://www.apa.org/about/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx

I really should, heres what I learned.

"Although sound data on the safety of SOCE are extremely limited, some individuals reported being harmed by SOCE."

Wow how fucking egregious. It's not. It's not egregious.

"Some individuals appeared to learn how to ignore or limit their attractions. "

Limited success has been observed.

"There are no studies of adequate scientific rigor to conclude whether or not recent SOCE do or do not work to change a person’s sexual orientation."

Whereas I thought every existing therapy was conclusively doghist it appears as though the jury is out.

In Delaware Christian Scientists are allowed to twiddle their thumbs while their kids die of easilly treatable diseases. You have not established egregious harm as a necessary element of any conversion therapy, you'd established you have an axe to grind.

I am not persuaded that it is totally and literally impossible to change a persons sexuality with any methods that could ever be conceived by the human mind. That would be a weird thing to assume.

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:

Hrythingia wrote:The LGBT (plus whatever else they’re chucking on to the end of that never ending thing) suffers from suicide rates for a multitude of reasons. I don’t think attempted therapy is one. It’s more due to issues of rejection, attention, isolation and confusion.
Sexual orientation cannot be fundamentally changed however it can be shifted I believe.

I also went to a catholic school, a boarding school no less so I know what that’s all about. No one says it’s ‘ebil’ it’s simply your choice whether or not to act on those impulses.

So, it’s either trusting you, or the American Psychological Association, hmmm. Why should I take your word over mental health professionals? And yes, LGBT people commit suicide at a higher rate and attending “ex-gay therapy” increase their risk.

Mental health professionals are frequently of a particular agenda and persuasion. Like many economics experts. Having the facts doesn’t mean they are unopinionated; and lets face it very few people inform their opinions on facts alone. I’m not saying people can become straight just like that or entirely at all, merely that one’s outlook on sexuality can be altered.

Therapy has very little do to with it. No major organisation seems to list it in their reason why LGBT folk suffer from high suicide rates. It’s mostly about rejection, pre-existing anti social disorders and often drug abuse/homelessness.

Senkaku wrote:Yes, it would (particularly if parents forced their child to do it, which is what this bill is expressly intended to combat). Making someone feel guilt and shame and that their sexuality is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed can, understandably, contribute to or exacerbate mental health problems. Just because it's not electroshock therapy or beatings doesn't mean it's okay, that makes about as much sense as saying that the Stasi's Zersetzung methods didn't actually hurt anyone. Were they supposed to cause physical harm? No, they were about causing psychological damage, it's in the damn name.

Yeah you're not describing egregious harm so much as shitty parenting. People can do suboptimal things in raising their kids.

Hrythingia wrote:

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:

So, it’s either trusting you, or the American Psychological Association, hmmm. Why should I take your word over mental health professionals? And yes, LGBT people commit suicide at a higher rate and attending “ex-gay therapy” increase their risk.

Mental health professionals are frequently of a particular agenda and persuasion.

Just like what the anti-vaxxers believe. We are finshed. Debating with you would be pointless and would only be a waste of time. Muting you now, ta ta.

Hrythingia wrote:

Senkaku wrote:Once again- this bill bans certified mental health professionals from practicing this quackery on minors. It doesn't tell adults they can't go do something that will be bad for them if they really want to.

Then in that case it’s the parents choice.

So is child abuse (physical, sexual, or otherwise). Doesn't mean either should be legally tolerated, and for the same reason.

Des-Bal wrote:

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:
Yes, it would be. The mental health community has stated that any attempt to change one’s sexual orientation is harmful. Since it appears you don’t have the ability to use Google search, I found this article from the APA for you. It pays to research something before opening your mouth to give an opinion.

http://www.apa.org/about/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx

I really should, heres what I learned.

"Although sound data on the safety of SOCE are extremely limited, some individuals reported being harmed by SOCE."

Wow how fucking egregious. It's not. It's not egregious.

"Some individuals appeared to learn how to ignore or limit their attractions. "

Limited success has been observed.

"There are no studies of adequate scientific rigor to conclude whether or not recent SOCE do or do not work to change a person’s sexual orientation."

Whereas I thought every existing therapy was conclusively doghist it appears as though the jury is out.

In Delaware Christian Scientists are allowed to twiddle their thumbs while their kids die of easilly treatable diseases. You have not established egregious harm as a necessary element of any conversion therapy, you'd established you have an axe to grind.

I am not persuaded that it is totally and literally impossible to change a persons sexuality with any methods that could ever be conceived by the human mind. That would be a weird thing to assume.

Yeah, I’m going what with my licensed mental health professional said over what you are not persuaded by. Just be honest, you morally disprove of homosexuality, but don’t be dishonest at the harms caused by “ex-gay therapy”

Senkaku wrote:

Vassenor wrote:So we're doing the whataboutism tango?

Ah, but we're pretending that we actually support the measure and just wish it went further,

Ouch. This one cut pretty deep.

and only using the most delicate of euphemisms and highest-pitched dog whistles when we're firing back at the gays and their "disproportionate coverage and attention from the electorate", apparently.

"Firing back at the gays"?

Implying that I'm in direct opposition to LGBT people and their rights now. Just because I had the gall to suggest their issues receive more coverage than the plight of those who undergo the trauma of post-cult deprogramming.

I'm done. I'll see myself out.

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:

Hrythingia wrote:Mental health professionals are frequently of a particular agenda and persuasion.

Just like what the anti-vaxxers believe. We are finshed. Debating with you would be pointless and would only be a waste of time. Muting you now, ta ta.

Well that’s sporting isn’t it? I’m not saying the data they collect is wrong: merely the way they use it is obviously motivated politically. Of course it is.

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:Yeah, I’m going what with my licensed mental health professional said over what you are not persuaded by. Just be honest, you morally disprove of homosexuality, but don’t be dishonest at the harms caused by “ex-gay therapy”

Argument from authority.

I have no problem with gay people, and I don't think any existing conversion therapy works. What I decline to do is make very broad judgement about the hypothetical limits of medicine or accept some increased potential for depression and anxiety as egregious harm.

Grenartia wrote:

Hrythingia wrote:Then in that case it’s the parents choice.

So is child abuse (physical, sexual, or otherwise). Doesn't mean either should be legally tolerated, and for the same reason.

And this is equatable to abuse because...?

Thank you Delaware! I hope the rest of the United States and the world can catch up soon.

[region-tag][/region-tag]

Des-Bal wrote:

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:Yeah, I’m going what with my licensed mental health professional said over what you are not persuaded by. Just be honest, you morally disprove of homosexuality, but don’t be dishonest at the harms caused by “ex-gay therapy”

Argument from authority....

ABSOLUTELY, I’m going to take a professional opinion of a mental health professional regarding mental health issues and therapy practices over you or anyone else on the internet that is only known by a screen name.

Saying that your non-professional bullshit opinion has equal or more weight than a licensed mental health professional tells me that debating you is a waste of time. Ta ta.

Hrythingia wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
So is child abuse (physical, sexual, or otherwise). Doesn't mean either should be legally tolerated, and for the same reason.

And this is equatable to abuse because...?

Because trying to torture the queerness out of a kid is inherently abusive.

San Lumen wrote:http://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/398450-delaware-becomes-15th-state-to-ban-conversion-therapy

LGBT rights might be under threat in some areas but in the State of Delaware LGBT people just got more rights as they are now the 15th state to ban the abhorrent practice of conversion therapy as the Governor has signed into law a bill outlawing the practice in the state. For those who dont know conversion therapy is a debunked pseudoscience that alleges ones sexual orientation can be changed from homosexual to heterosexual.

It is wonderful news to see this gaining traction as there is absolutely zero evidence that it works and may in fact be harmful to a child to teens well being which is who it is often used on. Teens have no ability to consent and therefore their parents may be irreparably harming their children.

Sexual orientation is not a choice and no amount of therapy can change it. This practice should be outlawed everywhere.

Whats your take NSG? Did the state do the right thing and should more follow?

Yes & yes.
Good job, Delaware! Stupid idea based on flimsy science. Get it out.

Grenartia wrote:

Hrythingia wrote:And this is equatable to abuse because...?

Because trying to torture the queerness out of a kid is inherently abusive.

Again, explain why this is ‘torture’?

Hrythingia wrote:

Grenartia wrote:
Because trying to torture the queerness out of a kid is inherently abusive.

Again, explain why this is ‘torture’?

Hold on, I have to sort through the literally thousands of accounts of torture going on in those programs.

It's about damn time.

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:=


ABSOLUTELY, I’m going to take a professional opinion of a mental health professional regarding mental health issues and therapy practices over you or anyone else on the internet that is only known by a screen name.

Saying that your non-professional bullshit opinion has equal or more weight than a licensed mental health professional tells me that debating you is a waste of time. Ta ta.

When you listen to titles and not rationales debating anything a waste of time. Good policy by the way, in terms of effectiveness ignoring everyone who disagrees with you is probably going to go better than offering up sources that don't say what you think they do.

Des-Bal wrote:

Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol wrote:Yeah, I’m going what with my licensed mental health professional said over what you are not persuaded by. Just be honest, you morally disprove of homosexuality, but don’t be dishonest at the harms caused by “ex-gay therapy”

Argument from authority.

Yeah, seeing as I don't have medical training, and modern medicine is pretty frickin' miraculous, I'm willing to accept that, even knowing that doctors and shrinks don't know everything and are still learning new and unexpected things all the time. Just saying "argument from authority!!!" when someone is actually citing, you know, a reputable authority with vast expertise, is really quite silly.

San Marlindo wrote:

Senkaku wrote:Ah, but we're pretending that we actually support the measure and just wish it went further,

Ouch. This one cut pretty deep.

and only using the most delicate of euphemisms and highest-pitched dog whistles when we're firing back at the gays and their "disproportionate coverage and attention from the electorate", apparently.

"Firing back at the gays"?

Implying that I'm in direct opposition to LGBT people and their rights now. Just because I had the gall to suggest their issues receive more coverage than the plight of those who undergo the trauma of post-cult deprogramming.

I'm done. I'll see myself out.

"The gall"? Please don't make this about you somehow being persecuted for being politically incorrect, or for raising an issue I think everyone, myself included, can agree on. It was about the thinly-veiled dog-whistles and carefully-couched euphemisms for supposed LGBT influence in the media and electorate.

It's like when people talk about the gay... what's the word, it's like a list, people make them for meetings, people have them, they're sorta like goals or outlines, starts with "A"...

Des-Bal wrote:

Senkaku wrote:Yes, it would (particularly if parents forced their child to do it, which is what this bill is expressly intended to combat). Making someone feel guilt and shame and that their sexuality is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed can, understandably, contribute to or exacerbate mental health problems. Just because it's not electroshock therapy or beatings doesn't mean it's okay, that makes about as much sense as saying that the Stasi's Zersetzung methods didn't actually hurt anyone. Were they supposed to cause physical harm? No, they were about causing psychological damage, it's in the damn name.

Yeah you're not describing egregious harm so much as shitty parenting. People can do suboptimal things in raising their kids.

No, I'm describing child abuse and psychological warfare methods used by one of the world's most feared secret police agencies, both of which drive and drove people to suicide or caused or exacerbated serious mental health problems.