Delaware bans Conversion Therapy

[San Marlindo]

Yes.

Why are they banning only gay conversion therapy, and not all conversion therapy?

Clearly it's because LGBT stuff makes the news and is considered important to their voters. Delaware and Hawaii state governments don't really care about how unjust involuntary reconditioning programs are.

I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of their motives, but it's certainly a valid interpretation- but is that a basis to actually oppose the passage of this law and others like it from? Sure, #AllConversionMatters or whatever, but if you believe that, then isn't this a good first step, cleverly arranged by taking advantage of a political desire to see this specific practice ended, that can serve as a springboard for more sweeping laws?

I don't oppose the legislation; in fact, I applaud it. Conversion therapy of anybody, for any reason, is one of the worst abuses of the mental health system there is.

I'm just deeply disappointed they didn't address all forms of conversion therapy. Partly because an old friend of the family's had to go through this (for her alternative spiritual lifestyle, not her sexual orientation).

Surely it would've been so much easier to go ahead and ban all forms of conversion therapy and still take advantage of the political desire to end gay conversion therapy while doing so. I had little confidence that Hare Krishnas and members of other minority sects would get justice for so-called "cult deprogramming" they were involuntarily subjected to, and even less confidence now. It's almost like you have to be gay or trans to get any sympathy for this horribly unethical practice, or nobody cares.

[Senkaku]

I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of their motives, but it's certainly a valid interpretation- but is that a basis to actually oppose the passage of this law and others like it from? Sure, #AllConversionMatters or whatever, but if you believe that, then isn't this a good first step, cleverly arranged by taking advantage of a political desire to see this specific practice ended, that can serve as a springboard for more sweeping laws?

I don't oppose the legislation; in fact, I applaud it.

I mean you're not applauding it, you're in line with the people railing against it who justify their opposition to it with complaints that it's just a cynical ploy by leaders who don't really care to secure their own power by pandering to their base.

Conversion therapy of anybody, for any reason, is one of the worst abuses of the mental health system there is.

I'm just deeply disappointed they didn't address all forms of conversion therapy. Partly because an old friend of the family's had to go through this (for her alternative spiritual lifestyle, not her sexual orientation).

Makes sense. That sucks. :/

Surely it would've been so much easier to go ahead and ban all forms of conversion therapy and still take advantage of the political desire to end gay conversion therapy while doing so. I had little confidence that Hare Krishnas and members of other minority sects would get justice for so-called "cult deprogramming" they were involuntarily subjected to, and even less confidence now.

On the first part- I doubt it, given the influence that some cults (@Scientology) hold and the trickiness of interfering with religion and with the actions of adults rather than minors. On the second front- that makes sense, but it might be worth it to get in touch with your state legislator (...if you live in a blue state, anyways, no red state will ever do anything like this, much less go further ) or whatnot.

It's almost like you have to be gay or trans to get any sympathy for this horribly unethical practice, or nobody cares.

Oh please, not this tired old fucking bullshit. "People only care nowadays if you're gay or trans!" Give me a fucking break lol.

[Hrythingia]

I don’t think anyone should be forced to undergo conversion therapy but if it’s consensual then I see no reason why it should be banned.

Why should someone be subjected to lies of a certain group of people and then take advice from a quack doctor who practices nonsense?

Because they chose to. That’s their poor judgement. We don’t ban soothsayers and those weird gypsy folk with palm readings and future telling orbs do we? So there’s no need to ban this.

[Senkaku]

Why should someone be subjected to lies of a certain group of people and then take advice from a quack doctor who practices nonsense?

Because they chose to. That’s their poor judgement. We don’t ban soothsayers and those weird gypsy folk with palm readings and future telling orbs do we? So there’s no need to ban this.

Once again- this bill bans certified mental health professionals from practicing this quackery on minors. It doesn't tell adults they can't go do something that will be bad for them if they really want to.

[San Marlindo]

Like I said, earlier, conversion therapy of people from minority religious sects like Hare Krishnas. They are kidnapped from their communities and involuntarily subject to a "deprogramming" process which follows the same basic routine as the conversion therapy of LGBT people.



It's pandering for votes rather than genuine concern at the abhorrence of the practice because they banned only one type of conversion therapy, which receives the most attention from their electorate.

They did nothing about the other kinds of conversion therapy.

It's like saying "let's ban all kidnappings of gay people because LGBT rights are trendy right now!" instead of "let's ban all kidnappings, period!"

Why would anyone do that to a religious sect?

That's a ridiculous analogy

What happens is that somebody who has left their family and social circle to pursue an alternative spiritual lifestyle is kidnapped and "deprogrammed" to lose their religious beliefs in a similar way gays are "deprogrammed" to lose their sexual orientation. Usually at the request of their parents.

This used to be very, very common in the '70s and '80s when a lot of spiritual movements founded on Eastern religions were popular. It still happens today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprogramming

It's not a ridiculous analogy, you're just ignorant about it because gay conversion therapy steals all the news headlines in this era. Unless you know somebody who's been through religious conversion therapy, you're likely to be unaware of it.

This reactionary practice of complaining that everyone else wasn't included in a piece of legislation whenever a marginalized group seeks protections tires me. First #AllLivesMatter, now this sort of thing.

Look, conversion therapy is a crime against humanity, no matter who it's directed at. I take offence at the crime itself, not the fact that some forms of this crime just so happen to target gay people.

You're clearly not concerned about the crime itself if you ban it only with regards to certain people.

I am possessed of the attitude that all people deserve equal protection under law. Extending protection to some groups but not others is inexcusable.

Would you rather they just didn't do anything? Surely a partial ban is better than nothing, no?

You're right, a partial ban is better than nothing. So some good did come of this, I'm not denying that.

[Hrythingia]

Because they chose to. That’s their poor judgement. We don’t ban soothsayers and those weird gypsy folk with palm readings and future telling orbs do we? So there’s no need to ban this.

Once again- this bill bans certified mental health professionals from practicing this quackery on minors. It doesn't tell adults they can't go do something that will be bad for them if they really want to.

Then in that case it’s the parents choice.

[San Lumen]

Why should someone be subjected to lies of a certain group of people and then take advice from a quack doctor who practices nonsense?

Because they chose to. That’s their poor judgement. We don’t ban soothsayers and those weird gypsy folk with palm readings and future telling orbs do we? So there’s no need to ban this.

Because the quacks that practice this rubbish should not be able to do so. Palm readings and Crystal balls don't cause harm

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

This makes about as much sense as saying that since crime rates are dropping, new legislation to further reduce them and to protect people is "meaningless virtue-signaling."

This is not completely meaningless, it's a considerable step forward for human rights.

Banning a voluntary procedure that's already dying is a "considerable step forward for human rights"?

Well shit. Somebody give the governor the Nobel Peace Prize.

Yep, LGBT youth being forced to attend these “conversion therapy” definitely had a choice in this matter. I can tell you haven’t read jack about what actually happens and what methods are use in “ex-gay therpay”

[Des-Bal]

I'm against it. I do not believe any successful method currently exists for conversion therapy to work, I don't believe it should be illegal to try where the practice is not egregiously harmful. Considering Delaware gives a pass to parents whose kids die due to being denied medical treatment for religious reasons the harm potentially caused by a therapy would have to be pretty severe to justify intercession by the law.

[Hrythingia]

Because they chose to. That’s their poor judgement. We don’t ban soothsayers and those weird gypsy folk with palm readings and future telling orbs do we? So there’s no need to ban this.

Because the quacks that practice this rubbish should not be able to do so. Palm readings and Crystal balls don't cause harm

They can do if you believe and try to pursue them. And conversion therapy doesn’t really cause much either. You either buy into it or you don’t. Like most things in life it’s a choice. If you want to practise rubbish: do it. People will soon expose you as a fraud. If you want to engage in superstitious twattery: do it. People will view you as a moron. Just because something is distasteful and or silly it doesn’t require a ban.

[San Marlindo]

I don't oppose the legislation; in fact, I applaud it.

I mean you're not applauding it, you're in line with the people railing against it who justify their opposition to it with complaints that it's just a cynical ploy by leaders who don't really care to secure their own power by pandering to their base.

I'm railing against the cynical leadership not the legislation. I think it's pandering and virtue-signalling, but that doesn't mean I think the legislation was antithetical to progress.

On the first part- I doubt it, given the influence that some cults (@Scientology) hold and the trickiness of interfering with religion and with the actions of adults rather than minors. On the second front- that makes sense, but it might be worth it to get in touch with your state legislator (...if you live in a blue state, anyways, no red state will ever do anything like this, much less go further ) or whatnot.

We've tried. Others have tried. For decades. Suing the deprogramming centers, suing the state, suing psychiatrists. There is no justice, partly because the public - including most jurors - have been misled to believe cult deprogramming is necessary in most cases, because they think of Jim Jones or Scientology when they think cult. No sympathy for the victims or respect for their religious beliefs.

Oh please, not this tired old fucking bullshit. "People only care nowadays if you're gay or trans!" Give me a fucking break lol.

That was the likelier of the two explanations I could think of why one group was singled out for protection under this law from a horrible, horrible crime as opposed to all people.

Either it's because:

a) this one group receives a disproportionate amount of media coverage and attention from the electorate, while others do not. Therefore, legislators in states like Hawaii and Delaware only care about one kind of conversion therapy affecting this group.

Or

b) legislators in states like Hawaii and Delaware are genuinely ignorant that any other forms of conversion therapy exist.

Feel free to provide another explanation but that's the only two I see.

[Senkaku]

[

This reactionary practice of complaining that everyone else wasn't included in a piece of legislation whenever a marginalized group seeks protections tires me. First #AllLivesMatter, now this sort of thing.

Look, conversion therapy is a crime against humanity, no matter who it's directed at. I take offence at the crime itself, not the fact that some forms of this crime just so happen to target gay people.

You're clearly not concerned about the crime itself if you ban it only with regards to certain people.

I am possessed of the attitude that all people deserve equal protection under law. Extending protection to some groups but not others is inexcusable.

Please. We agree on the equal protection front, and I absolutely think deprogramming should be banned as well- but laying into politicians for "pandering" and being "trendy", throwing out the whole dog whistle about "people only care about your problems nowadays if you're gay", equating the mass implementation of this practice to persecute LGBT minors with the use of similar practices by fringe religious groups on their adult members, and generally falling in line with the objections of the reactionary right to this sort of bill is where we part.

Would you rather they just didn't do anything? Surely a partial ban is better than nothing, no?

You're right, a partial ban is better than nothing. So some good did come of this, I'm not denying that.

You certainly seem more interested in speculating uncharitably about the motivations of the people who constructed it than discussing your issues with its construction and the options for improving it.

[San Lumen]

Because the quacks that practice this rubbish should not be able to do so. Palm readings and Crystal balls don't cause harm

They can do if you believe and try to pursue them. And conversion therapy doesn’t really cause much either. You either buy into it or you don’t. Like most things in life it’s a choice. If you want to practise rubbish: do it. People will soon expose you as a fraud. If you want to engage in superstitious twattery: do it. People will view you as a moron. Just because something is distasteful and or silly it doesn’t require a ban.

It causes harm to those that undergo it. Sexual orientation cannot be changed. Why should children and teens who cannot give consent and thus forced into by bigoted parents be subject to potential irreparable harm?

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

I'm against it. I do not believe any successful method currently exists for conversion therapy to work, I don't believe it should be illegal to try where the practice is not egregiously harmful. Considering Delaware gives a pass to parents whose kids die due to being denied medical treatment for religious reasons the harm potentially caused by a therapy would have to be pretty severe to justify intercession by the law.

As a person that actually went through “ex-gay therapy”, there is NO such thing. I’m against the ban, but to act like this practice is a forum of alternative medicine is wrong.

[Kohr]

Seems like my state (Minnesota) is currently debating a bill which would also end the practice. Frankly, I'm embarrassed we haven't done it sooner.

[Des-Bal]

As a person that actually went through “ex-gay therapy”, there is NO such thing. I’m against the ban, but to act like this practice is a forum of alternative medicine is wrong.

What if the therapy was Chai Tea twice a week?

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Because the quacks that practice this rubbish should not be able to do so. Palm readings and Crystal balls don't cause harm

They can do if you believe and try to pursue them. And conversion therapy doesn’t really cause much either. You either buy into it or you don’t. Like most things in life it’s a choice. If you want to practise rubbish: do it. People will soon expose you as a fraud. If you want to engage in superstitious twattery: do it. People will view you as a moron. Just because something is distasteful and or silly it doesn’t require a ban.

Yep, LGBT people committing suicide, or getting severe depression such as I did is “not really harmful” *nods* It’s okay to be honest and claim you don’t care about LGBT getting depression and/or committing suicide, but it’s another thing to be dishonest about the harms of “conversion therapy”. Just be honest, mate. You don’t care about LGBT people depression and/or committing suicide.

[Hrythingia]

They can do if you believe and try to pursue them. And conversion therapy doesn’t really cause much either. You either buy into it or you don’t. Like most things in life it’s a choice. If you want to practise rubbish: do it. People will soon expose you as a fraud. If you want to engage in superstitious twattery: do it. People will view you as a moron. Just because something is distasteful and or silly it doesn’t require a ban.

It causes harm to those that undergo it. Sexual orientation cannot be changed. Why should children and teens who cannot give consent and thus forced into by bigoted parents be subject to potential irreparable harm?

Sexual orientation is a peculiar thing. It would seem indeed that people by means of an unfortunate natural glitch are more susceptible to the aesthetics of the same sex. The extent to which they embark upon this preference is entirely dependant upon their atmosphere and culture. Therefore, I would argue it can be changed.. to a certain degree.

But more importantly, pray tell, what harm are you taking of?

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

As a person that actually went through “ex-gay therapy”, there is NO such thing. I’m against the ban, but to act like this practice is a forum of alternative medicine is wrong.

What if the therapy was Chai Tea twice a week?

Most “ex-gay therapy” is based on religion and/or the stereotype that gay men are not masculine enough and/or the fact that gay men hate their father. Two last two did not apply to me, so I took the religious route. Did not do jack shit.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

It causes harm to those that undergo it. Sexual orientation cannot be changed. Why should children and teens who cannot give consent and thus forced into by bigoted parents be subject to potential irreparable harm?

Sexual orientation is a peculiar thing. It would seem indeed that people by means of an unfortunate natural glitch are more susceptible to the aesthetics of the same sex. The extent to which they embark upon this preference is entirely dependant upon their atmosphere and culture. Therefore, I would argue it can be changed.. to a certain degree.

But more importantly, pray tell, what harm are you taking of?

LGBT committing suicide, for one. And I tried “ex-gay therapy”, and did not do jack fucking shit. The mental health community also states that sexual orientation CANNOT BE CHANGED. By the way, I did not start liking boys until I got to Catholic school. So all that conservative Catholic education did not take those “ebil gay thoughts away”

[Des-Bal]

Most “ex-gay therapy” is based on religion and/or the stereotype that gay men are not masculine enough and/or the fact that gay men hate their father. Two last two did not apply to me, so I took the religious route. Did not do jack shit.

Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood my question. I didn't ask for exceedingly spartan anectdotal evidence that 1/3 of "most" therapies don't work on you. I asked if Chai Tea twice a week to change a person's sexuality would be "egregiously harmful"

[San Marlindo]

Please. We agree on the equal protection front, and I absolutely think deprogramming should be banned as well-

OK, so there's no real disagreement between our fundamental perspectives...

but laying into politicians for "pandering" and being "trendy", throwing out the whole dog whistle about "people only care about your problems nowadays if you're gay", equating the mass implementation of this practice to persecute LGBT minors with the use of similar practices by fringe religious groups on their adult members, and generally falling in line with the objections of the reactionary right to this sort of bill is where we part.

...You just take objection to my language and cynical views on the legislators.

I took a step back to really consider this discussion, and I guess it all boils down to our personal experiences and how they've shaped our responses to the OP.

The first instinct of a gay person would be: overjoyed this legislation passed, and cannot see why anybody would possibly think poorly of the people who passed it.

The first instinct of someone whose friend was subject to the same treatment for different reasons would be: disappointed there's still no justice. So close, but so far away. Then anger. Why are the legislators so powerless? Clearly they must be pandering to their voters. Hence the motive speculation you referred to.

The "people only care about your problems nowadays if you're gay" wasn't an intentional dogwhistle or strawman bait, just the conclusion I legitimately reached. Either they're ignorant of the wider problem, or they only care about addressing those aspects of the wider problem which get them publicity and votes.

[Hrythingia]

Sexual orientation is a peculiar thing. It would seem indeed that people by means of an unfortunate natural glitch are more susceptible to the aesthetics of the same sex. The extent to which they embark upon this preference is entirely dependant upon their atmosphere and culture. Therefore, I would argue it can be changed.. to a certain degree.

But more importantly, pray tell, what harm are you taking of?

LGBT committing suicide, for one. And I tried “ex-gay therapy”, and did not do jack fucking shit. The mental health community also states that sexual orientation CANNOT BE CHANGED. By the way, I did not start liking boys until I got to Catholic school. So all that conservative Catholic education did not take those “ebil gay thoughts away”

The LGBT (plus whatever else they’re chucking on to the end of that never ending thing) suffers from suicide rates for a multitude of reasons. I don’t think attempted therapy is one. It’s more due to issues of rejection, attention, isolation and confusion.
Sexual orientation cannot be fundamentally changed however it can be shifted I believe.

I also went to a catholic school, a boarding school no less so I know what that’s all about. No one says it’s ‘ebil’ it’s simply your choice whether or not to act on those impulses.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Most “ex-gay therapy” is based on religion and/or the stereotype that gay men are not masculine enough and/or the fact that gay men hate their father. Two last two did not apply to me, so I took the religious route. Did not do jack shit.

Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood my question. I didn't ask for exceedingly spartan anectdotal evidence that 1/3 of "most" therapies don't work on you. I asked if Chai Tea twice a week to change a person's sexuality would be "egregiously harmful"

Yes, it would be. The mental health community has stated that any attempt to change one’s sexual orientation is harmful. Since it appears you don’t have the ability to use Google search, I found this article from the APA for you. It pays to research something before opening your mouth to give an opinion.

http://www.apa.org/about/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx

[Grenartia]

So we're doing the whataboutism tango?

I always thought Whataboutism was the debate equivalent of a Crazy Ivan.