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[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What policies would you use to reduce abortion numbers?

Welfare Support for Single Mothers
47
19%
Free Pregnancy-Related Health Care
46
18%
Comprehensive Sex Education
56
22%
Free Contraception
48
19%
Monetary Incentives (Child Care, Tax Incentives, Kid-Related Healthcare, specify if needed)
34
13%
No Changes
4
2%
Procedure Ban (Not outlawing abortion itself, but specific procedures)
1
0%
Outright Ban (With exceptions or without)
17
7%
 
Total votes : 253

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Beggnig
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Postby Beggnig » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:07 am

Vassenor wrote:
Beggnig wrote:Your own statistics show that less than ten percent of all abortions are from married women.


Sorry, what point are you trying to make here?


The discussion went along these lines:
"Hey, what percentage of people aborting are in stable relationships, not just having sex?"
"You're saying all women who abort are sluts, you're wrong and here's some statistics!"

The statistics bear out that most abortions are a result of loose sexual mores.
End of.

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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:08 am

Beggnig wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Oh look! More unsubstantiated "women who abort are sluts" bullshit!

Your own statistics show that less than ten percent of all abortions are from married women.

But over half are from women in relationships.

Here it is again:

The Free Joy State wrote:Now, for facts. Of the 185,824 women who had abortions in the UK in 2015, 29,358 were married, and 98,564 were in a relationship.


In a relationship is not "sleeping around".

Nice emotive language too, I was being respectful unlike your characterisation.

Not emotive at all. Just calling it as I see it.

And trying to portray all women who have abortion as whores is not respectful.

We have to stop saying "everybody drink". We'll all get alcohol poisoning.

Yeah, perhaps treating a discussion about the unborn like it's a party game was a bad idea?
Also, are you going posting the statistics/source on the 'negative psychic effects' of abstinence?

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Without intimacy, there isn’t the security in the relationship of knowing that the other person is there for you, or of knowing that they truly love you. Where intimacy is lacking, most partners don't intend to hurt their significant other, or are even unaware of the lack of intimacy which is why a lacking relationship, whether emotionally or physically, doesn’t have a promising success rate.

This lack of intimacy can cause support, understanding, loneliness and anger issues between a couple.


Sex is an importion part of couple bonding, as well as having health benefits for the individual, including lower blood pressure.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Placentica
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Postby Placentica » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:11 am

As a man I need to have a very strong opinion on this matter.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:12 am

Beggnig wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Sorry, what point are you trying to make here?


The discussion went along these lines:
"Hey, what percentage of people aborting are in stable relationships, not just having sex?"
"You're saying all women who abort are sluts, you're wrong and here's some statistics!"

The statistics bear out that most abortions are a result of loose sexual mores.
End of.


And what statistics would those be?
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:24 am

Vassenor wrote:
Beggnig wrote:
The discussion went along these lines:
"Hey, what percentage of people aborting are in stable relationships, not just having sex?"
"You're saying all women who abort are sluts, you're wrong and here's some statistics!"

The statistics bear out that most abortions are a result of loose sexual mores.
End of.


And what statistics would those be?

The statistics showing that 15.79% of women seeking abortions were married and 53.04% were in a relationship, apparently.

Apparently, 68.83% of all women seeking abortions being in a relationship of some kind when they do so somehow demonstrates that women are sleeping around (which according to my dictionary means "having sex with a lot of people without a having a close relationship with any of them").

I'm not sure I get the logic there... :eyebrow:
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:27 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
And what statistics would those be?

The statistics showing that 15.79% of women seeking abortions were married and 53.04% were in a relationship, apparently.

Apparently, 68.83% of all women seeking abortions being in a relationship of some kind when they do so somehow demonstrates that women are sleeping around (which according to my dictionary means "having sex with a lot of people without a close relationship with any of them").

I'm not sure I get the logic there... :eyebrow:


That tends to be what happens when you have to deal with an argument built entirely out of Narrativium.
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Jebslund
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Postby Jebslund » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:33 am

Vassenor wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:The statistics showing that 15.79% of women seeking abortions were married and 53.04% were in a relationship, apparently.

Apparently, 68.83% of all women seeking abortions being in a relationship of some kind when they do so somehow demonstrates that women are sleeping around (which according to my dictionary means "having sex with a lot of people without a close relationship with any of them").

I'm not sure I get the logic there... :eyebrow:


That tends to be what happens when you have to deal with an argument built entirely out of Narrativium.

Given his other comments in the thread have been either emotive appeals or stirring the pot, I elected to ignore him.

The logic, FJS, is the same, "Only MARRIAGE is a stable relationship" BS the self-styled moral guardians like to trot out when it comes to having sex.

EDIT: Someday, I'll remember to uncheck "Disable smilies" on the first go...
Last edited by Jebslund on Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:06 am

Beggnig wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Sorry, what point are you trying to make here?


The statistics bear out that most abortions are a result of loose sexual mores.
End of.

No. They. Don't. Read the stats again. Repeating that they do over and over again and then running away from the thread does nothing to counter that the stats clearly prove you wrong. ;)
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
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The Caleshan Valkyrie
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Posts: 612
Founded: Oct 07, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Caleshan Valkyrie » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:34 am

Beggnig wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Sorry, what point are you trying to make here?


The discussion went along these lines:
"Hey, what percentage of people aborting are in stable relationships, not just having sex?"
"You're saying all women who abort are sluts, you're wrong and here's some statistics!"

The statistics bear out that most abortions are a result of loose sexual mores.
End of.


Your question asked about stable relationships, and you were shown statistics demonstrating that the vast majority of abortion seekers (in the UK) were in exactly that.

Suddenly, only marriage qualifies as a stable relationship.

Fuck that noise, those goalposts stay RIGHT where they started.
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Estanglia
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Postby Estanglia » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:52 am

Beggnig wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Sorry, what point are you trying to make here?


The discussion went along these lines:
"Hey, what percentage of people aborting are in stable relationships, not just having sex?"
"You're saying all women who abort are sluts, you're wrong and here's some statistics!"

The statistics bear out that most abortions are a result of loose sexual mores.
End of.


Beggnig wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:Oh look! More unsubstantiated "women who abort are sluts" bullshit!

Your own statistics show that less than ten percent of all abortions are from married women.
Nice emotive language too, I was being respectful unlike your characterisation.
We have to stop saying "everybody drink". We'll all get alcohol poisoning.

Yeah, perhaps treating a discussion about the unborn like it's a party game was a bad idea?
Also, are you going posting the statistics/source on the 'negative psychic effects' of abstinence?



Not married =/= not in a stable relationship.

And what you believe to be loose sexual morals. Your morals are not universal.
Last edited by Estanglia on Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mihnoa
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Postby Mihnoa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:20 am

So I'm pro life. Anyone want to change my mind?

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:31 am

Mihnoa wrote:So I'm pro life. Anyone want to change my mind?


Maybe you should start by explaining why. We don't actually run our serious discussions on memes here.
Last edited by Vassenor on Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:38 am

Mihnoa wrote:So I'm pro life. Anyone want to change my mind?

Nope. You need to start a bit more sensibly by saying why you think that; instead of barging into the thread with the appearance of trying to pick a fight.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
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Jarian
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Postby Jarian » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:45 am

I don't see anything wrong with abortion. It's way better than unwanted kids in orphanages, abusive homes or poverty.
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Asurmenia
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Postby Asurmenia » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:53 am

I am personally Pro-Life although I understand the necessity of abortion in our modern times.

No matter how we say it, banning abortion is not going to stop it, in fact, it's just going to make women do so illegally, at their own risk. So, even as Pro-Life I understand it's necessity. However I do not agree with the fact that abortion seems to be just a secondary contraceptive at this point. By that I mean that a lot of people just have sex without being properly protected, and once the woman gets pregnant the choice is "Oh we can abort." I believe that this behavior deshumanizes the child, no matter what people tell me, that it's not really a child and still not human, I think that stopping something from becoming what it should be is wrong, again, my own opinion.

So I think that abortion should be a thing, sadly, but it shouldn't be distributed like it's candy, people need to be educated on what abortion is, what it entails, how it works and whatnot, and how to avoid having an abortion in the first place by teaching people to protect themselves. Abortion should always be the last option in my opinion, we're still talking about a future human life being killed.

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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:59 am

Asurmenia wrote:I am personally Pro-Life [...]

^^^This does not square with this:

Asurmenia wrote:[...] So I think that abortion should be a thing. [...]
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:01 am

Asurmenia wrote:I am personally Pro-Life although I understand the necessity of abortion in our modern times.

No matter how we say it, banning abortion is not going to stop it, in fact, it's just going to make women do so illegally, at their own risk. So, even as Pro-Life I understand it's necessity. However I do not agree with the fact that abortion seems to be just a secondary contraceptive at this point. By that I mean that a lot of people just have sex without being properly protected, and once the woman gets pregnant the choice is "Oh we can abort." I believe that this behavior deshumanizes the child, no matter what people tell me, that it's not really a child and still not human, I think that stopping something from becoming what it should be is wrong, again, my own opinion.

So I think that abortion should be a thing, sadly, but it shouldn't be distributed like it's candy, people need to be educated on what abortion is, what it entails, how it works and whatnot, and how to avoid having an abortion in the first place by teaching people to protect themselves. Abortion should always be the last option in my opinion, we're still talking about a future human life being killed.

This is basically what I think too.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:11 am

Asurmenia wrote:However I do not agree with the fact that abortion seems to be just a secondary contraceptive at this point. By that I mean that a lot of people just have sex without being properly protected, and once the woman gets pregnant the choice is "Oh we can abort."

Evidence that is the case, that women are actually willing to make repeated visits to abortion clinics as a method of contraception?

Asurmenia wrote:people need to be educated on what abortion is, what it entails, how it works and whatnot, and how to avoid having an abortion in the first place by teaching people to protect themselves.

This is contradictory. If people didn't know what an abortion was, then surely they wouldn't seek one out in the first place...? There is some kind of really distorted Meno's Paradox going on here... :eyebrow:
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Mihnoa
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Postby Mihnoa » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:12 am

Why am I pro-life you ask? Here's why, I believe that human life begins at conception, therefore, an abortion would end the life of a human being.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:16 am

Mihnoa wrote:Why am I pro-life you ask? Here's why, I believe that human life begins at conception, therefore, an abortion would end the life of a human being.

We have been over this repeatedly, but to reiterate:

In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8

human being
Word forms: plural human beings
countable noun
A human being is a man, woman, or child.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... uman-being

a child (plural: children) is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:18 am

Mihnoa wrote:Why am I pro-life you ask? Here's why, I believe that human life begins at conception, therefore, an abortion would end the life of a human being.


People terminate human beings legally all the time.
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Dylar
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Postby Dylar » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:30 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Mihnoa wrote:Why am I pro-life you ask? Here's why, I believe that human life begins at conception, therefore, an abortion would end the life of a human being.

We have been over this repeatedly, but to reiterate:

In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, or of any ruling, regulation, or interpretation of the various administrative bureaus and agencies of the United States, the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8

human being
Word forms: plural human beings
countable noun
A human being is a man, woman, or child.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dicti ... uman-being

a child (plural: children) is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child

Well, that's one definition anyway
child noun, often attributive
\ ˈchī(-ə)ld \
plural children\ ˈchil-​drən , -​dərn \
Definition of child (Entry 1 of 3)
1a : an unborn or recently born person
b dialect : a female infant
2a : a young person especially between infancy and youth

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/child

Kernen wrote:
Mihnoa wrote:Why am I pro-life you ask? Here's why, I believe that human life begins at conception, therefore, an abortion would end the life of a human being.


People terminate human beings legally all the time.

Just because it is legal does not make it right.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:35 am

Dylar wrote:Well, that's one definition anyway

Another:

child
noun [ C ] UK ​ /tʃaɪld/ US ​ /tʃaɪld/ plural children UK/ˈtʃɪl.drən/ US/ˈtʃɪl.drən/

a boy or girl from the time of birth until he or she is an adult, or a son or daughter of any age
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... lish/child
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:39 am

Dylar wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:We have been over this repeatedly, but to reiterate:




Well, that's one definition anyway
child noun, often attributive
\ ˈchī(-ə)ld \
plural children\ ˈchil-​drən , -​dərn \
Definition of child (Entry 1 of 3)
1a : an unborn or recently born person
b dialect : a female infant
2a : a young person especially between infancy and youth

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/child

Kernen wrote:
People terminate human beings legally all the time.

Just because it is legal does not make it right.


Defense of self is always right.
Warning: Poster is a Bad Person.

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The Caleshan Valkyrie
Diplomat
 
Posts: 612
Founded: Oct 07, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Caleshan Valkyrie » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:04 am

Asurmenia wrote:I am personally Pro-Life although I understand the necessity of abortion in our modern times.

No matter how we say it, banning abortion is not going to stop it, in fact, it's just going to make women do so illegally, at their own risk. So, even as Pro-Life I understand it's necessity. However I do not agree with the fact that abortion seems to be just a secondary contraceptive at this point. By that I mean that a lot of people just have sex without being properly protected, and once the woman gets pregnant the choice is "Oh we can abort." I believe that this behavior deshumanizes the child, no matter what people tell me, that it's not really a child and still not human, I think that stopping something from becoming what it should be is wrong, again, my own opinion.

So I think that abortion should be a thing, sadly, but it shouldn't be distributed like it's candy, people need to be educated on what abortion is, what it entails, how it works and whatnot, and how to avoid having an abortion in the first place by teaching people to protect themselves. Abortion should always be the last option in my opinion, we're still talking about a future human life being killed.


I agree with most of what was said here, though one small quibble:

It is wrong to think that women actively avoid using contraception in favor of getting an abortion, and such does a disservice to women seeking to get one. That clinics work hard to make it as safe and painless as possible does not mean it is completely painless. Ofttimes issues relating to contraception (or the lack thereof) stem from ignorance and lack of access.

Yes, there should be comprehensive sex ed, as you say. There can also be a few other measures that promote keeping the pregnancy and make an unplanned pregnancy less of a burden. Such would serve to reduce abortion quite impressively and would not even be so expensive for the state.
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