[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[Godular]

Godular, you might want to fix your quotes. You've made it look like you said those things.

Fixed now.

[Grapasia]

Taking responsibility at the last minute isn't a good thing.

Why is an abortion (which are often performed early in the pregnancy, as outlined) "taking responsibility at the last minute" but being trapped with an unplanned pregnancy that you are panicking wondering how to afford not?

being careful as early as possible will yield the best results possible when adopted as an outlook towards life by the average person
make that outlook relevant to their experiences.

Bodily sovereignty is an absolute right.

It prevents people being raped, enslaved, given cruel or unusual punishment and -- yes -- it also covers reproductive rights (including that of contraception or abortion).

It's a shame you'd rather not pay for it. But, things you'd rather not aren't a matter of law.

This is fascinating. I would ask you why body sovereignity should cover "reproductive rights" when carelessly aborting your tinder baby does nothing to avoid rape, slavery or cruel and unusual punishment (or maybe giving birth is cruel and unusual to you, wew), but it's very clear that you're counting on the state to enforce said right that materialised out of thin air (are you religious? rights were originally founded upon religion, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and I seriously doubt you believe in/respect a God) sooner or later. If or when it does in every state of the Union, your response will then be that what I have to say is super cool but the law doesn't agree with me. All of this talking is to stall the opponents of this before a move can be made to have the state puts those who refuse to go along with it in a prison cell. Crying slippery slope fallacy convinces the more boomerish in mindset members of the the old guard that the people advocating for change in a certain direction for the sake of that direction don't actually want to go fully in that direction beyond what is considered acceptable now at some point in the future, they just want this small incremental change that is currently reasonable now. They won't move further in that direction when they ernestly believe in that direction, they promise. Maybe some partial-birth abortions are that late because women voluntarily getting them didn't have access to abortion earlier, what's the point if it's their bodily autonomy still. Slippery. slope. fallacy.

I like you, I don't think you're a bad guy. I am starting to think there will come a day in which we don't need to debate like this anymore.

[Grapasia]

Pregnancy is inherently life-threatening. There are any number of complications that can take a woman from zero to six-feet-under within the span of minutes and with no forewarning whatsoever. If the woman does not wish to undertake those very extant risks, who are you to gainsay her?

This is a stretch. You can say the same about just existing, how long until the spawn of a cell that forgot how to stop dividing makes it past your immune system and gets out of control? Can you prove to me, with one hundred percent on the dot certainty, that you don't have the a hard-to-detect and aggressive cancer beginning to multiply in your body as you read this? Should we let people opt for euthanasia whenever they feel like it?

[Godular]

Why is an abortion (which are often performed early in the pregnancy, as outlined) "taking responsibility at the last minute" but being trapped with an unplanned pregnancy that you are panicking wondering how to afford not?

being careful as early as possible will yield the best results possible when adopted as an outlook towards life by the average person
make that outlook relevant to their experiences.

Free and freely-available contraception and Comprehensive Sex Education would address this point adequately. Shame that many pro-lifers have an issue with THOSE too. Your comments about communism, while previously irrelevant, cast some degree of insight on how you might consider such policies too.

Wouldn't be the first time I'd heard "EW THAT SOUNDS LIKE SOCIALISM!".

Bodily sovereignty is an absolute right.

It prevents people being raped, enslaved, given cruel or unusual punishment and -- yes -- it also covers reproductive rights (including that of contraception or abortion).

It's a shame you'd rather not pay for it. But, things you'd rather not aren't a matter of law.

This is fascinating. I would ask you why body sovereignity should cover "reproductive rights" when carelessly aborting your tinder baby does nothing to avoid rape, slavery or cruel and unusual punishment (or maybe giving birth is cruel and unusual to you, wew), but it's very clear that you're counting on the state to enforce said right that materialised out of thin air (are you religious? rights were originally founded upon religion, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and I seriously doubt you believe in/respect a God) sooner or later.

The funny thing here is that any purported 'right to life' has even less of a basis.

In any event, two things:

1) It is wrong to presume that women who get an abortion for what one might term 'elective reasons' are doing so 'carelessly'. An abortion is not something done as a flight of whimsy, and to disregard the decision-making that goes into it as such simply because it does not accord to your own position is telling in its own way.

2) Bodily sovereignty covers how a person can treat their specific body, and one particular branch of that is how the person can deal with intruders.

If or when it does in every state of the Union, your response will then be that what I have to say is super cool but the law doesn't agree with me.

It DOES, in EVERY STATE. Supreme court thing, you understand. That makes it the status quo, which if you are arguing against you must give us a workable argument that convinces us to accept your position. Simply stating your opinion and complaining that we'd reply with 'the law dun' agree with ya' is not how this is accomplished.

All of this talking is to stall the opponents of this before a move can be made to have the state puts those who refuse to go along with it in a prison cell. Crying slippery slope fallacy convinces the more boomerish in mindset members of the the old guard that the people advocating for change in a certain direction for the sake of that direction don't actually want to go fully in that direction beyond what is considered acceptable now at some point in the future, they just want this small incremental change that is currently reasonable now. They won't move further in that direction when they ernestly believe in that direction, they promise. Maybe some partial-birth abortions are that late because women voluntarily getting them didn't have access to abortion earlier, what's the point if it's their bodily autonomy still. Slippery. slope. fallacy.

The funny part of this whole comment is your entire argument here would be effectively nullified if we had universal healthcare.

I like you, I don't think you're a bad guy. I am starting to think there will come a day in which we don't need to debate like this anymore.

Like maybe if you (collectively) figured out a way to achieve your objective of reducing abortions without disrupting anybody's rights along the way, and didn't talk as if women who get abortions are sluts.

[The New California Republic]

This is fascinating. I would ask you why body sovereignity should cover "reproductive rights" when carelessly aborting your tinder baby does nothing to avoid rape, slavery or cruel and unusual punishment (or maybe giving birth is cruel and unusual to you, wew), but it's very clear that you're counting on the state to enforce said right that materialised out of thin air (are you religious? rights were originally founded upon religion, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and I seriously doubt you believe in/respect a God) sooner or later. If or when it does in every state of the Union, your response will then be that what I have to say is super cool but the law doesn't agree with me. All of this talking is to stall the opponents of this before a move can be made to have the state puts those who refuse to go along with it in a prison cell. Crying slippery slope fallacy convinces the more boomerish in mindset members of the the old guard that the people advocating for change in a certain direction for the sake of that direction don't actually want to go fully in that direction beyond what is considered acceptable now at some point in the future, they just want this small incremental change that is currently reasonable now. They won't move further in that direction when they ernestly believe in that direction, they promise. Maybe some partial-birth abortions are that late because women voluntarily getting them didn't have access to abortion earlier, what's the point if it's their bodily autonomy still. Slippery. slope. fallacy.

More ramblings.

And is punctuation rationed?

[Godular]

Pregnancy is inherently life-threatening. There are any number of complications that can take a woman from zero to six-feet-under within the span of minutes and with no forewarning whatsoever. If the woman does not wish to undertake those very extant risks, who are you to gainsay her?

This is a stretch.

Sixth leading cause of death for women of child-bearing age says it isn't a stretch at all.

The rest of your comment was irrelevant.

[The New California Republic]

I am starting to think there will come a day in which we don't need to debate like this anymore.

And why would that be?

[Grapasia]

This is a stretch.

Sixth leading cause of death for women of child-bearing age says it isn't a stretch at all.

The rest of your comment was irrelevant.

You don't argue in good faith if what you're doing is intentional. It is clever though, I will grant you that.

You discard the core of things as irrelevant.

You've claimed that me talking about promiscuity being negative because of its consequences is irrelevant. Therefore I don't have a leg to stand on, because the reckless behaviour that abortion incentivizes is irrelevant. You then say I should stop talking about women who get abortions as sluts and advocate for removing the consequences of that kind of behaviour. You want to address symptoms of a problem instead of the problem itself, a problem which is multi-faceted and affects everyone in numerous ways, because for whatever reason you believe it is moral for the problem to continue existing. It is a human right to perpetuate that problem, for whatever reason. Patching up the holes of a leaky boat is well and good but getting to dry land and ceasing to use a leaky boat ASAP is even better. You are sentimentally attached to a leaky boat and I don't think I would be able to change your mind about that in the period of time I would realistically be able to spend with you, and with the depth of conversation I am able to have with you over pretty much any digital medium.

This is a stretch.

Sixth leading cause of death for women of child-bearing age says it isn't a stretch at all.

The rest of your comment was irrelevant.

Cancer is another leading cause of death and can occur at any time, which you've edited out because I assume it's "irrelevant".
Should people be allowed to terminate their lives with euthanasia to avoid the suffering this causes? I don't think so. But I don't think people should argue in faith this poor either so I dunno, maybe I'm just not high IQ enough for this conniving display of verbal intelligence.

[Necroghastia]

Sixth leading cause of death for women of child-bearing age says it isn't a stretch at all.

The rest of your comment was irrelevant.

You don't argue in good faith if what you're doing is intentional. It is clever though, I will grant you that.

You discard the core of things as irrelevant.

You've claimed that me talking about promiscuity being negative because of its consequences is irrelevant. Therefore I don't have a leg to stand on, because the reckless behaviour that abortion incentivizes is irrelevant. You then say I should stop talking about women who get abortions as sluts and advocate for removing the consequences of that kind of behaviour. You want to address symptoms of a problem instead of the problem itself, a problem which is multi-faceted and affects everyone in numerous ways, because for whatever reason you believe it is moral for the problem to continue existing. It is a human right to perpetuate that problem, for whatever reason. Patching up the holes of a leaky boat is well and good but getting to dry land and ceasing to use a leaky boat ASAP is even better. You are sentimentally attached to a leaky boat and I don't think I would be able to change your mind about that in the period of time I would realistically be able to spend with you, and with the depth of conversation I am able to have with you over pretty much any digital medium.

Perhaps it would help if you demonstrated, with sources, why you think there's a problem.

Sixth leading cause of death for women of child-bearing age says it isn't a stretch at all.

The rest of your comment was irrelevant.

Cancer is another leading cause of death and can occur at any time, which you've edited out because I assume it's "irrelevant".
Should people be allowed to terminate their lives with euthanasia to avoid the suffering this causes? I don't think so. But I don't think people should argue in faith this poor either so I dunno, maybe I'm just not high IQ enough for this conniving display of verbal intelligence.

I don't see why the topic of euthanasia is relevant, either.

[The New California Republic]

Patching up the holes of a leaky boat is well and good but getting to dry land and ceasing to use a leaky boat ASAP is even better.

And what would you class as "dry land" in relation to abortion?

Cancer is another leading cause of death and can occur at any time, which you've edited out because I assume it's "irrelevant". Should people be allowed to terminate their lives with euthanasia to avoid the suffering this causes?

If they have untreatable cancer then yes they should. But this isn't a euthanasia thread, so it's entirely off-topic.

[Godular]

Sixth leading cause of death for women of child-bearing age says it isn't a stretch at all.

The rest of your comment was irrelevant.

You don't argue in good faith if what you're doing is intentional. It is clever though, I will grant you that.

You discard the core of things as irrelevant.

Because the remainder of your argument WAS irrelevant. Euthanasia is a topic for another thread. It was also disingenuous of you to put forward the idea that euthanasia is the only means to address an 'aggressive cancer'. This is not so. While such may have been motivated by a desire to try and claim our position is that DEATH IS THE ONLY ANSWER, it is flawed in the fact that there are other solutions to cancer than that, whereas for an unwanted pregnancy the death of the fetus is a regrettable but ultimately unavoidable consequence of rectifying the situation in which the woman's body is being used without her consent.

You've claimed that me talking about promiscuity being negative because of its consequences is irrelevant.

Promiscuity is irrelevant. Your morality is not universal, and you should not judge others simply because they do not comport themselves according to what you deem as right and good.

Therefore I don't have a leg to stand on, because the reckless behaviour that abortion incentivizes is irrelevant.

Whether it is 'reckless' is irrelevant, and the idea that abortion incentivizes that behavior is incorrect. It is not something done on a whim, and just because it is less painful and inconvenient than carrying the pregnancy to term does not mean that it is neither painful nor inconvenient.

You then say I should stop talking about women who get abortions as sluts and advocate for removing the consequences of that kind of behaviour. You want to address symptoms of a problem instead of the problem itself, a problem which is multi-faceted and affects everyone in numerous ways, because for whatever reason you believe it is moral for the problem to continue existing.

I consider an abortion to be a sad thing, but also a necessary thing to ensure that women have the same rights and treatment as all citizens in this country. If you wish to address the number of abortions by doing something OTHER than outright banning it in this circumstance or ANY circumstance, then I'd actually listen. But you do not seem to be doing this thing.

It is a human right to perpetuate that problem, for whatever reason. Patching up the holes of a leaky boat is well and good but getting to dry land and ceasing to use a leaky boat ASAP is even better.

Shitty comparison is shitty.

You are sentimentally attached to a leaky boat and I don't think I would be able to change your mind about that in the period of time I would realistically be able to spend with you, and with the depth of conversation I am able to have with you over pretty much any digital medium.

Says mister 'Alexa play hoes mad'. Leading with that did not speak well for your chances of convincing anybody here of anything.

[Grapasia]

Patching up the holes of a leaky boat is well and good but getting to dry land and ceasing to use a leaky boat ASAP is even better.

And what would you class as "dry land" in relation to abortion?

not being the town bike

[The New California Republic]

And what would you class as "dry land" in relation to abortion?

not being the town bike

And we are back to slut shaming. Everyone take a drink.

And do you have any evidence that the reason for women having abortions is causally related to being "the town bike"?

[Farnhamia]

Your morality is not universal, and you should not judge others simply because they do not comport themselves according to what you deem as right and good.

[The New California Republic]

Your morality is not universal, and you should not judge others simply because they do not comport themselves according to what you deem as right and good.

Relevance of that image?

[Godular]

Your morality is not universal, and you should not judge others simply because they do not comport themselves according to what you deem as right and good.

>image snipped<

'Alexa play hoes mad'

Relevance of that image?

I believe it was a 'Wow I cut myself on that edge!'

Which is amusing, considering the irony of such a statement.

[The New California Republic]

Relevance of that image?

I believe it was a 'Wow I cut myself on that edge!'

A bit hypocritical of him, considering his first foray into the thread consisted of that alexa quip.

[Jebslund]

And what would you class as "dry land" in relation to abortion?

not being the town bike

Babies are the punishment for sex. Everyone take another drink. Those who wish to continue having functioning livers are excused.

Did you know that single women are not the only ones who get abortions? Did you know that most who are having elective abortions are only doing so after other measures of birth control failed? Did you know prolonged abstinence, especially when in a relationship, actually has a negative impact on the psyche of many, if not most, adults?

[Reploid Productions]

Standby.

[Reploid Productions]

alexa play hoes mad

Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise.

What looks like sad sack moral posturing over dead babies should become a lot more important to you when the act of mashing them up is quite evidently related to the way people behave in general, depending on whether or not they are given a safety net for their dysfunctional actions.

Is this a healthy attitude for the average person to hold?

No I didn't. I compared having a safety net for performing dysfunctional actions

when carelessly aborting your tinder baby
<snip>
(are you religious? rights were originally founded upon religion, you can't have your cake and eat it too, and I seriously doubt you believe in/respect a God) sooner or later.

That's a whole lot of words to basically say "women who get abortions are hoes/dysfunctional/immoral/irresponsible and if you disagree with me you support mashing up babies", in other words trolling. And given your previous history as Technocratic Uganda, you have been hit by the hammer more than enough times to know better by now. So we're skipping the pleasantries.

*** Grapasia, 7-day ban for trolling. ***


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[The New California Republic]

[...] And given your previous history as Technocratic Uganda [...]

That actually makes sense. I thought the posting style seemed familiar.

[Beggnig]

not being the town bike

Babies are the punishment for sex. Everyone take another drink. Those who wish to continue having functioning livers are excused.

Did you know that single women are not the only ones who get abortions? Did you know that most who are having elective abortions are only doing so after other measures of birth control failed? Did you know prolonged abstinence, especially when in a relationship, actually has a negative impact on the psyche of many, if not most, adults?

Yes, but realistically how many of those getting abortions are sleeping around compared to those in a stable relationship? Again, is that because they're sleeping around? I think that data on the "negative impact on the psyche" would be skewed by how many would just be getting no sex at all against their will such as in a bad marriage. I'm interested to see it nonetheless.

[The Free Joy State]

Babies are the punishment for sex. Everyone take another drink. Those who wish to continue having functioning livers are excused.

Did you know that single women are not the only ones who get abortions? Did you know that most who are having elective abortions are only doing so after other measures of birth control failed? Did you know prolonged abstinence, especially when in a relationship, actually has a negative impact on the psyche of many, if not most, adults?

Yes, but realistically how many of those getting abortions are sleeping around compared to those in a stable relationship? Again, is that because they're sleeping around? I think that data on the "negative impact on the psyche" would be skewed by how many would just be getting no sex at all against their will such as in a bad marriage. I'm interested to see it nonetheless.

Oh look! More unsubstantiated "women who abort are sluts" bullshit!

We have to stop saying "everybody drink". We'll all get alcohol poisoning.

Now, for facts. Of the 185,824 women who had abortions in the UK in 2015, 29,358 were married, and 98,564 were in a relationship.

Additionally, more were in older women (with the number of abortions rising 18% in women 30-34 and 15% in women over 35 and dropping in women under 20). 54% of women who had an abortion also had one previous child, like this woman:

Jennie, who is now 42, had an abortion in 2007 when she was 39 years old.

She told The Huffington Post UK that she chose to have an abortion after she accidentally fell pregnant, as she wanted to "enjoy life" and enjoy the children she already has.

“In April 2013, two months before my 40th and a week before my husband was due to have his vasectomy, I missed a period and was shocked to discover I was pregnant again," she said.

[...]

"As time went on I felt myself sinking into depression, there were so many questions rushing through my mind. How could we afford another child? What was going to happen to the free time me and hubby? Did I really want to do the late nights and everything else all over again?"

[Beggnig]

Yes, but realistically how many of those getting abortions are sleeping around compared to those in a stable relationship? Again, is that because they're sleeping around? I think that data on the "negative impact on the psyche" would be skewed by how many would just be getting no sex at all against their will such as in a bad marriage. I'm interested to see it nonetheless.

Oh look! More unsubstantiated "women who abort are sluts" bullshit!

Your own statistics show that less than ten percent of all abortions are from married women.
Nice emotive language too, I was being respectful unlike your characterisation.

We have to stop saying "everybody drink". We'll all get alcohol poisoning.

Yeah, perhaps treating a discussion about the unborn like it's a party game was a bad idea?
Also, are you going posting the statistics/source on the 'negative psychic effects' of abstinence?

[Vassenor]

Oh look! More unsubstantiated "women who abort are sluts" bullshit!

Your own statistics show that less than ten percent of all abortions are from married women.

Sorry, what point are you trying to make here?