NationStates

Akrisen wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:
Except it doesn't for one simple reason, the sand castle imposes nothing on either of the two who made it, unlike the pregnancy. The pregnancy imposes on one person and one person alone, the girl. The abortion is about the woman since the pregnancy is imposing on her body, and as such she gets to make medical decisions for herself. The embryo is essentially a part of the woman's body until viability.

Man you say this is equality then go woman this woman that making it clear only the woman's view matters so just say its a women's rights issue not an equality issue.

Again incorrect as both men and women are allowed to make decisions about what they want to do with their own body,including making their own medical decisions.

The medical procedure thing is stupid any woman could have their tubes tied like like any guy can have a vasectomy, simply equalizing abortion doesnt restrict women from medical procedures in anyway.

Sure they could have their tubes tied, she might now want to, since you know surgery can be dangerous, or because she lacks the money, or any other number of reasons. Her reason for not having her tubes tied is her own medical decision.

Besides you are acting like the guy wont agree with the mom anyway.

No I am not, the situation where he agrees does not matter since you know she would be controlling her own medical decisions anyway, it is when there is disagreement that you are putting forward the unequal thing of a man getting to decide whether or not a woman can make her own medical decisions.

Beggnig wrote:

The Free Joy State wrote:It is equality.

Men have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women cannot tell their partners to get a vasectomy/not get a vasectomy.

Men cannot tell their partners to get an abortion/not get an abortion.

No-one can force another party into doing something with their body that they do not want (have sex, have a procedure, etc).

That is equality.

Yeah, because if you've got a body inside you with its own heartbeat, that's totally your body.
Your decision to do something with your body was having sex.
Rape's not legal, nobody is legally forced to reproduce.

Yes because the fetus totally can be detached from the mother and be independent simply because it has a heartbeat.

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.

My debate will cease when you admit this is about women's rights not equality until then i will not stop. Nothing I posted is what I view on abortion I am confused why people misuse the term equality so much.

Akrisen wrote:My debate will cease when you admit this is about women's rights not equality until then i will not stop. Nothing I posted is what I view on abortion I am confused why people misuse the term equality so much.

This thread is to discuss abortion, not your personal ideas on equality (not a mod... just personally hope you don't plan on taking up to many pages with what your views on abortion aren't).

Akrisen wrote:My debate will cease when you admit this is about women's rights not equality until then i will not stop. Nothing I posted is what I view on abortion I am confused why people misuse the term equality so much.

First why should I care whether you continue to debate or not (rhetorical)?Second, because what you are suggesting as equal is not. Finally

Mod hat on: Your opinions on equality are only on topic so long as you connect them with abortion, otherwise this is not the thread for it.

Akrisen wrote:My debate will cease when you admit this is about women's rights not equality until then i will not stop. Nothing I posted is what I view on abortion I am confused why people misuse the term equality so much.

There is a funny thing about equality: sometimes it must be unequal in order to achieve equality.

Disabled parking, for instance.

The simple fact of the matter is that women are the ones directly affected by a pregnancy. Men simply have no equivalent in the matter. It is a logistical issue that they quite simply do not have to consider. You have been rather consistently demonstrating a massive misunderstanding of ‘equality’ and ways to properly achieve such a state.

I already spoke on how to rectify your perceived double-standard. I might also mention that there are ways to reduce the number of abortions taking place that do not require anything to be made illegal or for any conflict of rights to occur.

Advocate for those methods and you’d have pro-choicers cheering you on.

The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:

Akrisen wrote:My debate will cease when you admit this is about women's rights not equality until then i will not stop. Nothing I posted is what I view on abortion I am confused why people misuse the term equality so much.

There is a funny thing about equality: sometimes it must be unequal in order to achieve equality.

Disabled parking, for instance.

The simple fact of the matter is that women are the ones directly affected by a pregnancy. Men simply have no equivalent in the matter. It is a logistical issue that they quite simply do not have to consider. You have been rather consistently demonstrating a massive misunderstanding of ‘equality’ and ways to properly achieve such a state.

I already spoke on how to rectify your perceived double-standard. I might also mention that there are ways to reduce the number of abortions taking place that do not require anything to be made illegal or for any conflict of rights to occur.

Advocate for those methods and you’d have pro-choicers cheering you on.

Technically there are men who might have to deal with pregnancy, namely ftm trans individuals. They also get to decide if they want to have an abortion should they become pregnant. Eventually, when medical science is able to give mtf individuals a uterus capable able of having a pregnancy, she too would be able to have an abortion.

The Caleshan Valkyrie wrote:

Akrisen wrote:My debate will cease when you admit this is about women's rights not equality until then i will not stop. Nothing I posted is what I view on abortion I am confused why people misuse the term equality so much.

There is a funny thing about equality: sometimes it must be unequal in order to achieve equality.

Disabled parking, for instance.

About sums it up.

San Lumen wrote:

Runtopia wrote:Do you have a source, before I continue with my argument?

https://gantdaily.com/2015/08/14/11-yea ... -paraguay/

Yes, there would be trauma for any woman who gave birth as a result of rape. Especially an 11-year-old, but there has also been studies (I'll link it) to show that there could possibly be more trauma to women who aborted after rape than those who bear the child. The mindset now would be "I was raped, then I killed a child" vs. "I was raped and gave birth as a result."
http://afterabortion.org/2018/abortion- ... al-review/

Runtopia wrote:

San Lumen wrote:https://gantdaily.com/2015/08/14/11-yea ... -paraguay/

Yes, there would be trauma for any woman who gave birth as a result of rape. Especially an 11-year-old, but there has also been studies (I'll link it) to show that there could possibly be more trauma to women who aborted after rape than those who bear the child. The mindset now would be "I was raped, then I killed a child" vs. "I was raped and gave birth as a result."
http://afterabortion.org/2018/abortion- ... al-review/

I don't see anything specifically about rape and abortion, and it even says that "here is insufficient evidence to prove that abortion is the sole cause of the higher rates of mental illness associated with abortion."

Regardless, so what you're saying is that it is case by case and that a woman should have a choice in the matter on ether or not she decides to abort or keep the result of a rape?

Runtopia wrote:

San Lumen wrote:https://gantdaily.com/2015/08/14/11-yea ... -paraguay/

Yes, there would be trauma for any woman who gave birth as a result of rape. Especially an 11-year-old, but there has also been studies (I'll link it) to show that there could possibly be more trauma to women who aborted after rape than those who bear the child. The mindset now would be "I was raped, then I killed a child" vs. "I was raped and gave birth as a result."
http://afterabortion.org/2018/abortion- ... al-review/

Read through that article, and even though it is for all intents and purposes a pro-life propaganda site, I cannot seem to locate where it says anything close to what you say it did.

The circumstances of the conception have no bearing on the morality of an abortion.

Runtopia wrote:

San Lumen wrote:https://gantdaily.com/2015/08/14/11-yea ... -paraguay/

Yes, there would be trauma for any woman who gave birth as a result of rape. Especially an 11-year-old, but there has also been studies (I'll link it) to show that there could possibly be more trauma to women who aborted after rape than those who bear the child. The mindset now would be "I was raped, then I killed a child" vs. "I was raped and gave birth as a result."
http://afterabortion.org/2018/abortion- ... al-review/

I bring the BMJ to argue against your pro-life site.

A study of women who were either turned away for an abortion due to advanced gestational age or received one found: "Women who received an abortion were at no higher risk of PTSD than women denied an abortion." (i.e. having an abortion puts women at no increased risk of trauma)

Meanwhile, this longitudinal study found that "The predicted probability of reporting that abortion was the right decision was over 99% at all time points over three years." (i.e. most women who had an abortion believe they did the right thing).

Neutraligon wrote:

Akrisen wrote:My debate will cease when you admit this is about women's rights not equality until then i will not stop. Nothing I posted is what I view on abortion I am confused why people misuse the term equality so much.

First why should I care whether you continue to debate or not (rhetorical)?Second, because what you are suggesting as equal is not. Finally

Mod hat on: Your opinions on equality are only on topic so long as you connect them with abortion, otherwise this is not the thread for it.

Maybe you cannot understand gender equal abortion thats why.

Akrisen wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:First why should I care whether you continue to debate or not (rhetorical)?Second, because what you are suggesting as equal is not. Finally

Mod hat on: Your opinions on equality are only on topic so long as you connect them with abortion, otherwise this is not the thread for it.

Maybe you cannot understand gender equal abortion thats why.

Maybe its because your "gender equal" abortion relies entirely on the position of a man on whether or not a woman is allowed access to a medical procedure on her own body but have no such "equality" when it comes to male medical procedures.

Highever wrote:

Akrisen wrote:
Maybe you cannot understand gender equal abortion thats why.

Maybe its because your "gender equal" abortion relies entirely on the position of a man on whether or not a woman is allowed access to a medical procedure on her own body but have no such "equality" when it comes to male medical procedures.

Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

Galloism wrote:

Highever wrote:Maybe its because your "gender equal" abortion relies entirely on the position of a man on whether or not a woman is allowed access to a medical procedure on her own body but have no such "equality" when it comes to male medical procedures.

Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

Citation needed.

Akrisen wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:First why should I care whether you continue to debate or not (rhetorical)?Second, because what you are suggesting as equal is not. Finally

Mod hat on: Your opinions on equality are only on topic so long as you connect them with abortion, otherwise this is not the thread for it.

Maybe you cannot understand gender equal abortion thats why.

Thus far you have been rather stubbornly clinging to a mistaken concept of equality.

You should probably fix that.

Runtopia wrote:

San Lumen wrote:https://gantdaily.com/2015/08/14/11-yea ... -paraguay/

Yes, there would be trauma for any woman who gave birth as a result of rape. Especially an 11-year-old, but there has also been studies (I'll link it) to show that there could possibly be more trauma to women who aborted after rape than those who bear the child. The mindset now would be "I was raped, then I killed a child" vs. "I was raped and gave birth as a result."
http://afterabortion.org/2018/abortion- ... al-review/

Why should she have been forced to go through that trauma and potential bodily harm?

Should I have the right to make medical decisions for you since you don’t believe in body autonomy?

Galloism wrote:

Highever wrote:Maybe its because your "gender equal" abortion relies entirely on the position of a man on whether or not a woman is allowed access to a medical procedure on her own body but have no such "equality" when it comes to male medical procedures.

Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

if true that should not be the case. Like I said both men and women should be able to make their own medical decisions for themselves.

Akrisen wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:First why should I care whether you continue to debate or not (rhetorical)?Second, because what you are suggesting as equal is not. Finally

Mod hat on: Your opinions on equality are only on topic so long as you connect them with abortion, otherwise this is not the thread for it.

Maybe you cannot understand gender equal abortion thats why.

Or you have no idea what you are talking about given you are putting forward ideas that would be unequal for the reasons previously mentioned.

Runtopia wrote:

San Lumen wrote:https://gantdaily.com/2015/08/14/11-yea ... -paraguay/

Yes, there would be trauma for any woman who gave birth as a result of rape. Especially an 11-year-old, but there has also been studies (I'll link it) to show that there could possibly be more trauma to women who aborted after rape than those who bear the child. The mindset now would be "I was raped, then I killed a child" vs. "I was raped and gave birth as a result."
http://afterabortion.org/2018/abortion- ... al-review/

So are you saying that women are too stupid to take this into account when making decisions about their own bodies ?

Kowani wrote:

Galloism wrote:Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

Citation needed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12257282

https://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/are ... vasectomy/

https://medicaljustice.com/spousal-cons ... vasectomy/

Some examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/co ... ermission/

https://www.bestvasectomy.com/want-a-va ... our-money/

Some example forms used by practices:

https://www.ironwoodfp.com/pdfs/Vasecto ... 20Form.pdf

https://www.healthbanks.com/PracticeCol ... Packet.pdf

http://www.vasectomymedical.com/webpage ... onsent.pdf

http://arizona-urology.com/wp-content/u ... Packet.pdf

Neutraligon wrote:

Galloism wrote:Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

if true that should not be the case. Like I said both men and women should be able to make their own medical decisions for themselves.

Agreed - but let’s be clear that men do not now have, nor have ever had, bodily autonomy. Every time we say “we need to give women bodily autonomy to be equal to men” or such, that’s spurious. Giving women, and not men, bodily autonomy is not equality.

Bodily autonomy should be pursued, because it’s the right thing to do. Not because of equality, but because of the increase in individual rights.

Galloism wrote:

Kowani wrote:Citation needed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12257282

https://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/are ... vasectomy/

https://medicaljustice.com/spousal-cons ... vasectomy/

Some examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/co ... ermission/

https://www.bestvasectomy.com/want-a-va ... our-money/

Some example forms used by practices:

https://www.ironwoodfp.com/pdfs/Vasecto ... 20Form.pdf

https://www.healthbanks.com/PracticeCol ... Packet.pdf

http://www.vasectomymedical.com/webpage ... onsent.pdf

http://arizona-urology.com/wp-content/u ... Packet.pdf

Well that’s just fucking shitty.