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[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What policies would you use to reduce abortion numbers?

Welfare Support for Single Mothers
481
17%
Free Pregnancy-Related Health Care
494
17%
Comprehensive Sex Education
604
21%
Free Contraception
499
17%
Monetary Incentives (Child Care, Tax Incentives, Kid-Related Healthcare, specify if needed)
375
13%
No Changes
47
2%
Procedure Ban (Not outlawing abortion itself, but specific procedures)
89
3%
Outright Ban (With exceptions or without)
281
10%
 
Total votes : 2870

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Page
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Postby Page » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:46 am

Irish Laren wrote:
The South Falls wrote:You want people to have babies conceived of rape? What if mother's lives are at serious risk? (Ectopic pregnancies, etc.)


C-sections are a good option if their mother's live is at risk, and my mother had a high blood pressure, so i was forced to born earlier, (I should be born in March)


There are numerous complications that can threaten the life of both the mother and the fetus that a c-section can't fix.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:47 am

Page wrote:
Irish Laren wrote:
C-sections are a good option if their mother's live is at risk, and my mother had a high blood pressure, so i was forced to born earlier, (I should be born in March)


There are numerous complications that can threaten the life of both the mother and the fetus that a c-section can't fix.

What are those?
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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:50 am

Irish Laren wrote:
The South Falls wrote:You want people to have babies conceived of rape? What if mother's lives are at serious risk? (Ectopic pregnancies, etc.)


C-sections are a good option if their mother's live is at risk, and my mother had a high blood pressure, so i was forced to born earlier, (I should be born in March). And they can aso adopt the baby after the birth

I think a woman has enough right to her body that she can choose if she wants to have an Abortion.
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Irish Laren
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Postby Irish Laren » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:53 am

The South Falls wrote:
Irish Laren wrote:
C-sections are a good option if their mother's live is at risk, and my mother had a high blood pressure, so i was forced to born earlier, (I should be born in March). And they can aso adopt the baby after the birth

I think a woman has enough right to her body that she can choose if she wants to have an Abortion.


No, abortion is a crime
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History of Irish Laren
Political Parties
Independent: The leader of the now banned group called "Feck the Brits" called for a civil war in Irish Laren if the President doesn't uplift the ban and ban all the British people and everything British. Which got him arrested just an hour ago and President Dave Hagen reacted to this by saying: "We do not accept such threats simply because they doesn't like the UK, we had a harsh past, but after all, the UK and Ireland are both trade partners of Irish Laren, even when Irish Laren was under British rule", the INP condemns the ant-British group and supports the President

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 am

Irish Laren wrote:
The South Falls wrote:I think a woman has enough right to her body that she can choose if she wants to have an Abortion.


No, abortion is a crime

No it isn't.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:54 am

Irish Laren wrote:
The South Falls wrote:I think a woman has enough right to her body that she can choose if she wants to have an Abortion.


No, abortion is a crime


Which country are we talking about here? Because I'm pretty sure it's not in the US or the UK (apart from NI because fuck the DUP).
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Irish Laren
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Postby Irish Laren » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:56 am

Ifreann wrote:
Irish Laren wrote:
No, abortion is a crime

No it isn't.


Yes, and it's child murder
Catholic
I do not use NS stats
History of Irish Laren
Political Parties
Independent: The leader of the now banned group called "Feck the Brits" called for a civil war in Irish Laren if the President doesn't uplift the ban and ban all the British people and everything British. Which got him arrested just an hour ago and President Dave Hagen reacted to this by saying: "We do not accept such threats simply because they doesn't like the UK, we had a harsh past, but after all, the UK and Ireland are both trade partners of Irish Laren, even when Irish Laren was under British rule", the INP condemns the ant-British group and supports the President

No stereotypes about Irish Laren and Ireland please!
If ya wanna attack me personally then leave me alone

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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:56 am

Irish Laren wrote:
Ifreann wrote:No it isn't.


Yes, and it's child murder

Alright, back to the old routine. if you're not born, you're not a child.
This is an MT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.


Political Compass Results:

Economic: -5.5
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51
I make dumb jokes. I'm really serious about that.

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Irish Laren
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Postby Irish Laren » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:56 am

Vassenor wrote:
Irish Laren wrote:
No, abortion is a crime


Which country are we talking about here? Because I'm pretty sure it's not in the US or the UK (apart from NI because fuck the DUP).


And you should stop attacking Conservatives
Catholic
I do not use NS stats
History of Irish Laren
Political Parties
Independent: The leader of the now banned group called "Feck the Brits" called for a civil war in Irish Laren if the President doesn't uplift the ban and ban all the British people and everything British. Which got him arrested just an hour ago and President Dave Hagen reacted to this by saying: "We do not accept such threats simply because they doesn't like the UK, we had a harsh past, but after all, the UK and Ireland are both trade partners of Irish Laren, even when Irish Laren was under British rule", the INP condemns the ant-British group and supports the President

No stereotypes about Irish Laren and Ireland please!
If ya wanna attack me personally then leave me alone

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Geneviev
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Founded: Mar 03, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Geneviev » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:00 am

The South Falls wrote:
Irish Laren wrote:
Yes, and it's child murder

Alright, back to the old routine. if you're not born, you're not a child.

Can we just all agree that we will never agree on this and so there's no point in trying?
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:02 am

Irish Laren wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Which country are we talking about here? Because I'm pretty sure it's not in the US or the UK (apart from NI because fuck the DUP).


And you should stop attacking Conservatives


Right how dare I hate the party that's set equal rights in NI back several decades.
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Irish Laren
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Postby Irish Laren » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:04 am

The South Falls wrote:
Irish Laren wrote:
Yes, and it's child murder

Alright, back to the old routine. if you're not born, you're not a child.


Yes you are, at the moment the heart starts beating it's a living baby
Catholic
I do not use NS stats
History of Irish Laren
Political Parties
Independent: The leader of the now banned group called "Feck the Brits" called for a civil war in Irish Laren if the President doesn't uplift the ban and ban all the British people and everything British. Which got him arrested just an hour ago and President Dave Hagen reacted to this by saying: "We do not accept such threats simply because they doesn't like the UK, we had a harsh past, but after all, the UK and Ireland are both trade partners of Irish Laren, even when Irish Laren was under British rule", the INP condemns the ant-British group and supports the President

No stereotypes about Irish Laren and Ireland please!
If ya wanna attack me personally then leave me alone

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Ifreann
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Posts: 139810
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
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Postby Ifreann » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:06 am

Irish Laren wrote:
Ifreann wrote:No it isn't.


Yes, and it's child murder

For it to be a crime it would have to be against the law. And it isn't against the law. So it can't be a crime.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Regular Thorough Handwashing For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Coughing Etiquette That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Social Distancing
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You've got a lonesome road to walk, and it ain't along the railroad track, and it ain't along the black-top tar you walked a hundred times before.
I'll tell you where the real road lies: between your ears, behind your eyes. That is the path to paradise, likewise the road to ruin.

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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:08 am

Irish Laren wrote:
The South Falls wrote:Alright, back to the old routine. if you're not born, you're not a child.


Yes you are, at the moment the heart starts beating it's a living baby

As much as I agree, you can't convince them of this. They'll always think that a baby isn't a person until it's born.

Also, Christian song reference. Tim Neufeld, Heart Starts Beating. :p
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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:10 am

Irish Laren wrote:
The South Falls wrote:Alright, back to the old routine. if you're not born, you're not a child.


Yes you are, at the moment the heart starts beating it's a living baby

You know what, fuck it, we're never going to agree on this shit. I'll say it's when it's born, but you can say whatever. Do you really want to go on that?
This is an MT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.


Political Compass Results:

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Irish Laren
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Postby Irish Laren » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:14 am

The South Falls wrote:
Irish Laren wrote:
Yes you are, at the moment the heart starts beating it's a living baby

You know what, fuck it, we're never going to agree on this shit. I'll say it's when it's born, but you can say whatever. Do you really want to go on that?


That's up to you
Catholic
I do not use NS stats
History of Irish Laren
Political Parties
Independent: The leader of the now banned group called "Feck the Brits" called for a civil war in Irish Laren if the President doesn't uplift the ban and ban all the British people and everything British. Which got him arrested just an hour ago and President Dave Hagen reacted to this by saying: "We do not accept such threats simply because they doesn't like the UK, we had a harsh past, but after all, the UK and Ireland are both trade partners of Irish Laren, even when Irish Laren was under British rule", the INP condemns the ant-British group and supports the President

No stereotypes about Irish Laren and Ireland please!
If ya wanna attack me personally then leave me alone

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Page
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Posts: 12068
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:20 am

Irish Laren wrote:
The South Falls wrote:Alright, back to the old routine. if you're not born, you're not a child.


Yes you are, at the moment the heart starts beating it's a living baby


Before, you said you were against abortion with no exceptions, now you're saying that a heartbeat is the line, but that would mean you accept abortions early in pregnancy, so which is it?

Also, I know how much anti-abortion people love bringing up a fetus' heartbeat, but have you ever stopped to think about how arbitrary and meaningless this milestone is? You need lungs to live too, why not the develop of lungs rather than the heartbeat? A fetus definitely needs a liver to keep living, why a heartbeat rather than a liver? What about bones? You're not going to last without bones. Why is it always the heartbeat?

Bringing up the heartbeat is not an ethical argument against abortion, it's an appeal to emotion because many people view the heart as important symbol of life. But it's just an organ, there is no scientific reason to elevate it over any other biological function.
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:21 am

Irish Laren wrote:
The South Falls wrote:You want people to have babies conceived of rape? What if mother's lives are at serious risk? (Ectopic pregnancies, etc.)


C-sections are a good option if their mother's live is at risk, and my mother had a high blood pressure, so i was forced to born earlier, (I should be born in March)

An ectopic pregnancy could rupture and kill the woman well before the foetus would be viable to survive a C-section.

Symptoms tend to develop at the 12th week. The only real treatment is to abort the baby with Methotrexate or to remove by keyhole surgery. It's sad, but true.

So, rather than letting a woman have a clean and quick abortion, you'd be forcing her to have open abdominal surgery, for... literally no different outcome for the foetus and a much riskier outcome -- open surgery is risky and the general anaesthesia often used is always potentially dangerous -- for the woman?

And, with the sole exception of Malta (where it's always illegal), abortion is not a crime.

EDIT: That just reminded me about one of the cases before Ireland's ban was overturned. Savita Halappanavar developed a ruptured membrane at seventeen weeks gestation. She was miscarrying anyway, but the doctors refused to abort because "Ireland is a Catholic country" and there was still a foetal heartbeat. She developed sepsis and died seven days later

Anyone in favour of denying even medical abortions should think on cases like that.

And, for my views, I am in favour of legal abortion up until foetal viability (and several weeks beyond for maternal health, if doctors' agree that the mother's medical need outweighs other considerations). But I think it's very sad and I'm uncomfortable about them on a personal level.

I wish there were fewer abortions. I think though, that that shouldn't be achieved by legislation. Rather, it should be achieved by distributing free contraception, providing better and comprehensive sex education; by destigmatising welfare and by increasing the quantity of it and the availability to those in need. It should be achieved by funding better state education and healthcare so that women who have unplanned pregnancies don't feel so helpless.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:10 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Postby Godular » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:09 am

Irish Laren wrote:
The South Falls wrote:Alright, back to the old routine. if you're not born, you're not a child.


Yes you are, at the moment the heart starts beating it's a living baby


That does not give it the right to usurp control of another person’s body.
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Irish Laren
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Postby Irish Laren » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:46 am

Page wrote:
Irish Laren wrote:
Yes you are, at the moment the heart starts beating it's a living baby


Before, you said you were against abortion with no exceptions, now you're saying that a heartbeat is the line, but that would mean you accept abortions early in pregnancy, so which is it?

Also, I know how much anti-abortion people love bringing up a fetus' heartbeat, but have you ever stopped to think about how arbitrary and meaningless this milestone is? You need lungs to live too, why not the develop of lungs rather than the heartbeat? A fetus definitely needs a liver to keep living, why a heartbeat rather than a liver? What about bones? You're not going to last without bones. Why is it always the heartbeat?

Bringing up the heartbeat is not an ethical argument against abortion, it's an appeal to emotion because many people view the heart as important symbol of life. But it's just an organ, there is no scientific reason to elevate it over any other biological function.


As I said: Abortion should be illegal, no matter what
Catholic
I do not use NS stats
History of Irish Laren
Political Parties
Independent: The leader of the now banned group called "Feck the Brits" called for a civil war in Irish Laren if the President doesn't uplift the ban and ban all the British people and everything British. Which got him arrested just an hour ago and President Dave Hagen reacted to this by saying: "We do not accept such threats simply because they doesn't like the UK, we had a harsh past, but after all, the UK and Ireland are both trade partners of Irish Laren, even when Irish Laren was under British rule", the INP condemns the ant-British group and supports the President

No stereotypes about Irish Laren and Ireland please!
If ya wanna attack me personally then leave me alone

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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:59 am

Irish Laren wrote:
Page wrote:
Before, you said you were against abortion with no exceptions, now you're saying that a heartbeat is the line, but that would mean you accept abortions early in pregnancy, so which is it?

Also, I know how much anti-abortion people love bringing up a fetus' heartbeat, but have you ever stopped to think about how arbitrary and meaningless this milestone is? You need lungs to live too, why not the develop of lungs rather than the heartbeat? A fetus definitely needs a liver to keep living, why a heartbeat rather than a liver? What about bones? You're not going to last without bones. Why is it always the heartbeat?

Bringing up the heartbeat is not an ethical argument against abortion, it's an appeal to emotion because many people view the heart as important symbol of life. But it's just an organ, there is no scientific reason to elevate it over any other biological function.


As I said: Abortion should be illegal, no matter what

My man, did you read what Joy posted? There are people who, in Ireland, (before the referenda) that had pregnancies where the fetus couldn't have gone to term, and c-section wasn't possible. The lady died of sepsis seven days later.
This is an MT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.


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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:10 am

The South Falls wrote:
Irish Laren wrote:
As I said: Abortion should be illegal, no matter what

My man, did you read what Joy posted? There are people who, in Ireland, (before the referenda) that had pregnancies where the fetus couldn't have gone to term, and c-section wasn't possible. The lady died of sepsis seven days later.

It gets worse.

A woman in Ireland -- with cancer (link's behind a paywall) -- was denied a termination, despite medical advice, because her life was "not in immediate danger"). She travelled to Britain, and did live, but it used to be a regular occurrence in Ireland apparently.

In Italy, another woman -- pregnant with twins -- began premature labour at nineteen weeks. She was admitted to hospital and became desperately ill. One of the foetuses were also struggling to breathe. Her doctor refused to abort because "he was a conscientious objector to abortion". She contracted an infection and died.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:11 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
The South Falls wrote:My man, did you read what Joy posted? There are people who, in Ireland, (before the referenda) that had pregnancies where the fetus couldn't have gone to term, and c-section wasn't possible. The lady died of sepsis seven days later.

It gets worse.

A woman in Ireland -- with cancer (link's behind a paywall) -- was denied a termination, despite medical advice, because her life was "not in immediate danger)

In Italy, another woman -- pregnant with twins -- began premature labour at nineteen weeks. She was admitted to hospital and became desperately ill. One of the foetuses were also struggling to breathe. Her doctor refused to abort because "he was a conscientious objector to abortion". She contracted an infection.


But God's Will...
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The Free Joy State
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:16 am

Vassenor wrote:
The Free Joy State wrote:It gets worse.

A woman in Ireland -- with cancer (link's behind a paywall) -- was denied a termination, despite medical advice, because her life was "not in immediate danger)

In Italy, another woman -- pregnant with twins -- began premature labour at nineteen weeks. She was admitted to hospital and became desperately ill. One of the foetuses were also struggling to breathe. Her doctor refused to abort because "he was a conscientious objector to abortion". She contracted an infection.


But God's Will...

People who think God wills women to needlessly suffer and die when they could be easily treated might want to re-evaluate their interpretation.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

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The South Falls
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The South Falls » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:20 am

The Free Joy State wrote:
The South Falls wrote:My man, did you read what Joy posted? There are people who, in Ireland, (before the referenda) that had pregnancies where the fetus couldn't have gone to term, and c-section wasn't possible. The lady died of sepsis seven days later.

It gets worse.

A woman in Ireland -- with cancer (link's behind a paywall) -- was denied a termination, despite medical advice, because her life was "not in immediate danger"). She travelled to Britain, and did live, but it used to be a regular occurrence in Ireland apparently.

In Italy, another woman -- pregnant with twins -- began premature labour at nineteen weeks. She was admitted to hospital and became desperately ill. One of the foetuses were also struggling to breathe. Her doctor refused to abort because "he was a conscientious objector to abortion". She contracted an infection and died.

The fact that you have to have someone on the brink of death before you do something that should be a basic right for a woman is extremely stupid. Oh, and bodily sovereignty has to extend to the woman.
This is an MT nation that reflects some of my beliefs, trade deals and debate always welcome! Call me TeaSF. A level 8, according to This Index.


Political Compass Results:

Economic: -5.5
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.51
I make dumb jokes. I'm really serious about that.

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