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[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What policies would you use to reduce abortion numbers?

Welfare Support for Single Mothers
481
17%
Free Pregnancy-Related Health Care
494
17%
Comprehensive Sex Education
604
21%
Free Contraception
499
17%
Monetary Incentives (Child Care, Tax Incentives, Kid-Related Healthcare, specify if needed)
375
13%
No Changes
47
2%
Procedure Ban (Not outlawing abortion itself, but specific procedures)
89
3%
Outright Ban (With exceptions or without)
281
10%
 
Total votes : 2870

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:55 am

San Lumen wrote:You therefore think a rape or incest victim should be forced to carry to term a child they dont want?

I am so tired that of this 140 pages and endless rehashings of this point in on this thread later I want an antiabortionist to come in and honestly declare: "Yes, I want a rape or incest victim, no matter the age to be forced by the mandate of law to carry to term a fetus they explicitly and with full information declared that they do not wish to carry."

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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:58 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
San Lumen wrote:You therefore think a rape or incest victim should be forced to carry to term a child they dont want?

I am so tired that of this 140 pages and endless rehashings of this point in on this thread later I want an antiabortionist to come in and honestly declare: "Yes, I want a rape or incest victim, no matter the age to be forced by the mandate of law to carry to term a fetus they explicitly and with full information declared that they do not wish to carry."


so you don't believe that?

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:58 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Also, since a baby has been born at 21 weeks, surely it's only acceptable to disallow it after that date?

Extremely rare and very much the exception. Babies prematurely born before 24 weeks (the point from which abortions are usually banned except in extreme circumstances) have much higher mortality and a much higher risk of long-term disability:

Image
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:59 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Also, since a baby has been born at 21 weeks, surely it's only acceptable to disallow it after that date?

Extremely rare and very much the exception. Babies prematurely born before 24 weeks (the point from which abortions are usually banned except in extreme circumstances) have much higher mortality and a much higher risk of long-term disability:

Image

A risk of disability should not a law make.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:03 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Extremely rare and very much the exception. Babies prematurely born before 24 weeks (the point from which abortions are usually banned except in extreme circumstances) have much higher mortality and a much higher risk of long-term disability:

(Image)

A risk of disability should not a law make.

Fine. Ignore the rest of the content of my post with some selective reading. :roll:
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:08 am

San Lumen wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:I am so tired that of this 140 pages and endless rehashings of this point in on this thread later I want an antiabortionist to come in and honestly declare: "Yes, I want a rape or incest victim, no matter the age to be forced by the mandate of law to carry to term a fetus they explicitly and with full information declared that they do not wish to carry."


so you don't believe that?

I do believe that. I just want some antiabortionist to be entirely honest with people instead of referring to their nebulous utopic ideas about how things work. Because however much one wishes that shit were black and white and one can condemn all the people who opt for an abortion for being homicidal murderers, that's still not how things work in real life. Instead of every last woman who opt for abortions being sadistic, psychopathic murderers we have pre-teens who need it because the pregnancy would kill them otherwise, instead of masses of evil women who do it out of a sense of convenience we have people who wanted babies but have been unfortunately rendered unable to care for them, or been struck with conditions that would poison and kill their own bodies.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:10 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
so you don't believe that?

I do. I just want some antiabortionist to be entirely honest with people instead of referring to their nebulous utopic ideas about how things work. Because however much one wishes that shit were black and white and one can condemn all the people who opt for an abortion for being homicidal murderers, that's still not how things work in real life.

Why should a rape or incest victim have to carry to term a child they do not want?

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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:14 am

San Lumen wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:I do. I just want some antiabortionist to be entirely honest with people instead of referring to their nebulous utopic ideas about how things work. Because however much one wishes that shit were black and white and one can condemn all the people who opt for an abortion for being homicidal murderers, that's still not how things work in real life.

Why should a rape or incest victim have to carry to term a child they do not want?

I should've said that I do believe that but I think my posts here very much demonstrates that I am in no way for any abortion bans in the name of utopic ideals.

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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:16 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Why should a rape or incest victim have to carry to term a child they do not want?

I should've said that I do believe that but I think my posts here very much demonstrates that I am in no way for any abortion bans in the name of utopic ideals.


Therefore your personally pro life but do not believe in bans on abortion?

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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:18 am

San Lumen wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:I should've said that I do believe that but I think my posts here very much demonstrates that I am in no way for any abortion bans in the name of utopic ideals.


Therefore your personally pro life but do not believe in bans on abortion?

I'm sorry I am confused... <.< probably a sign of me requiring dinner.
I meant that I believe that rape and incest victims should be provided with abortion services on demand (like everybody else), and that it should be covered by universal healthcare plans from the government like any other medical procedure.

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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:19 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Therefore your personally pro life but do not believe in bans on abortion?

I'm sorry I am confused... <.< probably a sign of me requiring dinner.
I meant that I believe that rape and incest victims should be provided with abortion services on demand (like everybody else), and that it should be covered by universal healthcare plans from the government like any other medical procedure.

On that I agree with you.

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:28 am

San Lumen wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:I'm sorry I am confused... <.< probably a sign of me requiring dinner.
I meant that I believe that rape and incest victims should be provided with abortion services on demand (like everybody else), and that it should be covered by universal healthcare plans from the government like any other medical procedure.

On that I agree with you.

Because that child obviously chose how it was conceived...
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:37 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
San Lumen wrote:On that I agree with you.

Because that child obviously chose how it was conceived...


Of course it didnt but that doesn't mean a fetus should have special rights. If a pregnancy is a result of rape or incest it should not be forced upon them to carry it to term

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:41 am

San Lumen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Because that child obviously chose how it was conceived...


Of course it didnt but that doesn't mean a fetus should have special rights. If a pregnancy is a result of rape or incest it should not be forced upon them to carry it to term

The only way I could agree is in the case of someone under the age of consent.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:42 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Of course it didnt but that doesn't mean a fetus should have special rights. If a pregnancy is a result of rape or incest it should not be forced upon them to carry it to term

The only way I could agree is in the case of someone under the age of consent.


Why should a women be forced to carry to term a child she does not want? Pregnancy is a lot to ask of someone. They have to watch what they eat and what physical activity they do among other things. It should be something that is wanted not forced.

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:46 am

San Lumen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:The only way I could agree is in the case of someone under the age of consent.


Why should a women be forced to carry to term a child she does not want? Pregnancy is a lot to ask of someone. They have to watch what they eat and what physical activity they do among other things. It should be something that is wanted not forced.

It's all about proportionality. Does the temporary discomfort of the mother justify killing the child? I don't think so.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:50 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Why should a women be forced to carry to term a child she does not want? Pregnancy is a lot to ask of someone. They have to watch what they eat and what physical activity they do among other things. It should be something that is wanted not forced.

It's all about proportionality. Does the temporary discomfort of the mother justify killing the child? I don't think so.


And what right do you have to force someone to have a child they dont want?

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:57 am

San Lumen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:It's all about proportionality. Does the temporary discomfort of the mother justify killing the child? I don't think so.


And what right do you have to force someone to have a child they dont want?

It's not about the mother having the child, the mother preferably doesn't even come into it. It's about the childs right to life.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:00 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
And what right do you have to force someone to have a child they dont want?

It's not about the mother having the child, the mother preferably doesn't even come into it. It's about the childs right to life.

It isn't a child, it's a fetus. Let's try to use the correct terminology to avoid confusion, hm?

a child (plural: children) is a human being between the stages of birth and puberty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

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White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:01 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
And what right do you have to force someone to have a child they dont want?

It's not about the mother having the child, the mother preferably doesn't even come into it. It's about the childs right to life.


well if we are going to give a fetus special rights why dont we count them in the census?

That fetus is feeding off the mother and taking from her which she did not consent too. Why does a fetus have that right?

Why do you have to give consent to donate blood, give a DNA sample or donate bone marrow or an organ? Why does a fetus have special rights?

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:02 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:It's not about the mother having the child, the mother preferably doesn't even come into it. It's about the childs right to life.


well if we are going to give a fetus special rights why dont we count them in the census?

That fetus is feeding off the mother and taking from her which she did not consent too. Why does a fetus have that right?

Why do you have to give consent to donate blood, give a DNA sample or donate bone marrow or an organ? Why does a fetus have special rights?

Sure, count them in the census, no problem for me.
I'm not entirely sure you should have to give consent to donate organs, at least after you're dead.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:04 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
well if we are going to give a fetus special rights why dont we count them in the census?

That fetus is feeding off the mother and taking from her which she did not consent too. Why does a fetus have that right?

Why do you have to give consent to donate blood, give a DNA sample or donate bone marrow or an organ? Why does a fetus have special rights?

Sure, count them in the census, no problem for me.
I'm not entirely sure you should have to give consent to donate organs, at least after you're dead.


We ought to count those who are unborn in the census?

I believe next of kin has to give consent but you dodged my question. Why does a fetus have the right to use someone else's body without their consent a right we give no one else?

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:07 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Sure, count them in the census, no problem for me.
I'm not entirely sure you should have to give consent to donate organs, at least after you're dead.


We ought to count those who are unborn in the census?

I believe next of kin has to give consent but you dodged my question. Why does a fetus have the right to use someone else's body without their consent a right we give no one else?

Sure, I don't really believe in the census anyway. Best get rid of it, but if you're going to do it then count fetuses.

It's a case of act vs. omission. Refusing consent to give blood is similar to refusing to have sex, whereas deciding that the fetus has to be removed from you after the sex has been had is more akin as demanding that the blood be returned to you after you've given it.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:09 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:deciding that the fetus has to be removed from you after the sex has been had is more akin as demanding that the blood be returned to you after you've given it.

Oh shit, not more "having sex is consent to pregnancy" nonsense again. :eyebrow:
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:10 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
We ought to count those who are unborn in the census?

I believe next of kin has to give consent but you dodged my question. Why does a fetus have the right to use someone else's body without their consent a right we give no one else?

Sure, I don't really believe in the census anyway. Best get rid of it, but if you're going to do it then count fetuses.

It's a case of act vs. omission. Refusing consent to give blood is similar to refusing to have sex, whereas deciding that the fetus has to be removed from you after the sex has been had is more akin as demanding that the blood be returned to you after you've given it.


having accurate representation is a bad thing to you? But that's a topic for another thread.

If we are going to consider fetuses as part of household can we count pets as well?

No it isn't. I dont know how you made that leap. Why does a fetus have the right to use someone else's body without their consent? A right given to no one else.

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