[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[Northern Davincia]

They are individuals in the sense that they are two entities (independent from each other) occupying separate points in space. I have to take multiple factors into consideration, not just one.

What you're doing is taking whatever factor happens to be convenient at the time into consideration.

You are free to think so.

[Neanderthaland]

What you're doing is taking whatever factor happens to be convenient at the time into consideration.

You are free to think so.

It's transparently obvious from your arguments. You don't really think that conjoined twins being A) genetically identical, and B) not physically separate (independent from each other) are the same individual. Even though that is the logical conclusion of your arguments.

Because at the end of the day you hold the same standards of personhood as the rest of us, one that relates to the mind. And specifically the brain. No one considers a person with an extra limb to be two people, but every fair-minded person concedes that anyone with two heads is.

[San Lumen]

What does ageism have to do with this?

Ageism exists here as the dehumanization of the unborn, which is linked to their sheer youth.

In the US constitution, it kinda does.

Slaves were people before the 13th amendment passed.

No one is dehumanizing the unborn. They are not a person and have no legal rights nor should they.

You have no right to make medical decisions for others and force someone to have a child they do not want.

[Northern Davincia]

You are free to think so.

It's transparently obvious from your arguments. You don't really think that conjoined twins being A) genetically identical, and B) not physically separate (independent from each other) are the same individual. Even though that is the logical conclusion of your arguments.

Because at the end of the day you hold the same standards of personhood as the rest of us, one that relates to the mind. And specifically the brain. No one considers a person with an extra limb to be two people, but every fair-minded person concedes that anyone with two heads is.

Genetic differences between identical twins do exist. When it comes to conjoined twins, however, the act of being linked together does not negate the occupation of different spaces. They just happen to be closer than most siblings.

[Northern Davincia]

Ageism exists here as the dehumanization of the unborn, which is linked to their sheer youth.

Slaves were people before the 13th amendment passed.

No one is dehumanizing the unborn. They are not a person and have no legal rights nor should they.

You have no right to make medical decisions for others and force someone to have a child they do not want.

You may deny their personhood, but you cannot deny their humanity. In a few states, they retain some legal rights. I really don't care whose decision it is.

[Genivaria]

No one is dehumanizing the unborn. They are not a person and have no legal rights nor should they.

You have no right to make medical decisions for others and force someone to have a child they do not want.

You may deny their personhood, but you cannot deny their humanity. In a few states, they retain some legal rights. I really don't care whose decision it is.

Their personhood is the part that matters.

[Northern Davincia]

You may deny their personhood, but you cannot deny their humanity. In a few states, they retain some legal rights. I really don't care whose decision it is.

Their personhood is the part that matters.

Personhood has never been a reliable concept. It changes with the times too frequently.

[The Free Joy State]

Their personhood is the part that matters.

Personhood has never been a reliable concept. It changes with the times too frequently.

Even if a foetus was a person -- not a human, that's different (and simply a matter of being of the species homo sapiens) -- the pro-life argument is not about giving the foetus the same rights. It is about giving the foetus superior rights, to every born man, woman and child.

• If someone walks into your home and begins taking your food without permission, you can have the police forcibly remove them.
• If a parent no longer wishes to parent a born child, they can take them to the state and have the state remove their parental duties (the child gets no say).
• If your first cousin Al, who desperately needs your kidney (because you are the only match and Al will die without it) wants to force you to give him your kidney (but you don't want him to have use of your kidney), you keep your kidney and Al's life comes to an early conclusion (unfortunate, but true).

Why should a foetus have more rights -- not the same, but more -- than any other person?

[San Lumen]

No one is dehumanizing the unborn. They are not a person and have no legal rights nor should they.

You have no right to make medical decisions for others and force someone to have a child they do not want.

You may deny their personhood, but you cannot deny their humanity. In a few states, they retain some legal rights. I really don't care whose decision it is.

What are these legal rights because I've never heard of that.

And if you can make medical choices for someone else can I make them for you as well?

a fetus is not a human nor is a person.

[Dylar]

You may deny their personhood, but you cannot deny their humanity. In a few states, they retain some legal rights. I really don't care whose decision it is.

What are these legal rights because I've never heard of that.

And if you can make medical choices for someone else can I make them for you as well?

a fetus is not a human nor is a person.

What makes a fetus not human, may I ask? Is it not made up of human DNA?

[New haven america]

What are these legal rights because I've never heard of that.

And if you can make medical choices for someone else can I make them for you as well?

a fetus is not a human nor is a person.

What makes a fetus not human, may I ask? Is it not made up of human DNA?

It is human but it's not a person.

[San Lumen]

What are these legal rights because I've never heard of that.

And if you can make medical choices for someone else can I make them for you as well?

a fetus is not a human nor is a person.

What makes a fetus not human, may I ask? Is it not made up of human DNA?

poor choice of words I admit. it is human but it is not a person and should be recognized as such have more rights than anyone else

[Dogmeat]

It's transparently obvious from your arguments. You don't really think that conjoined twins being A) genetically identical, and B) not physically separate (independent from each other) are the same individual. Even though that is the logical conclusion of your arguments.

Because at the end of the day you hold the same standards of personhood as the rest of us, one that relates to the mind. And specifically the brain. No one considers a person with an extra limb to be two people, but every fair-minded person concedes that anyone with two heads is.

Genetic differences between identical twins do exist. When it comes to conjoined twins, however, the act of being linked together does not negate the occupation of different spaces. They just happen to be closer than most siblings.

If the genetic differences between identical twins count, then every single person is actually multiple people, because genetic differences exist between the cells in your own body.

Conjoined twins literally share their body. The only space that is consistently different between separate individuals is the only space that matters: the brain.

[The New California Republic]

What are these legal rights because I've never heard of that.

And if you can make medical choices for someone else can I make them for you as well?

a fetus is not a human nor is a person.

What makes a fetus not human, may I ask? Is it not made up of human DNA?

A fetus is typically thought of as being human but not a human being. It isn't a person.

[Vassenor]

By that standard twins are not individuals. Genetics are only important when you need them to be. Otherwise they're not.

They are individuals in the sense that they are two entities (independent from each other) occupying separate points in space. I have to take multiple factors into consideration, not just one.

A fetus is not independent of its mother though.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

What makes a fetus not human, may I ask? Is it not made up of human DNA?

A fetus is typically thought of as being human but not a human being. It isn't a person.

'human but not a human being'

So, it is human, but because we're so progressive we want to make some kind of exemption to justify letting people kill them. So it's 'human but not a human being.'

[The New California Republic]

A fetus is typically thought of as being human but not a human being. It isn't a person.

'human but not a human being'

So, it is human, but because we're so progressive we want to make some kind of exemption to justify letting people kill them. So it's 'human but not a human being.'

You have that inverted. A fetus doesn't meet the criteria by which we typically define the term "human being".

And yes it is human. I didn't say otherwise.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

'human but not a human being'

So, it is human, but because we're so progressive we want to make some kind of exemption to justify letting people kill them. So it's 'human but not a human being.'

You have that inverted. A fetus doesn't meet the criteria by which we typically define the term "human being".

And yes it is human. I didn't say otherwise.

How do you define a human being? Late-term abortions would often be viable births, so it's not dependant on the mothers body to survive at that point.

[The New California Republic]

You have that inverted. A fetus doesn't meet the criteria by which we typically define the term "human being".

And yes it is human. I didn't say otherwise.

How do you define a human being? Late-term abortions would often be viable births, so it's not dependant on the mothers body to survive at that point.

Late-term abortions are usually banned except in extremely specific circumstances, and therefore are extremely uncommon. Most abortions happen before 24 weeks.

A human being is a person. A fetus isn't a person.

Noun
human being (plural human beings)

A person; a large sapient, bipedal primate, with notably less hair than others of that order, of the species Homo sapiens.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/human_being

[Vassenor]

How do you define a human being? Late-term abortions would often be viable births, so it's not dependant on the mothers body to survive at that point.

Late-term abortions are usually banned except in extremely specific circumstances, and therefore are extremely uncommon. Most abortions happen before 24 weeks.

A human being is a person. A fetus isn't a person.

Noun
human being (plural human beings)

A person; a large sapient, bipedal primate, with notably less hair than others of that order, of the species Homo sapiens.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/human_being

Said specific circumstances generally being "the mother will actually die if we don't end it".

[Genivaria]

You have that inverted. A fetus doesn't meet the criteria by which we typically define the term "human being".

And yes it is human. I didn't say otherwise.

How do you define a human being? Late-term abortions would often be viable births, so it's not dependant on the mothers body to survive at that point.

Late term abortions aren't the point of dispute, supporting at will abortions even in the 3rd trimester would be an extreme position that very few pro-choice people hold.
Unlike the extreme position of no abortions ever which an unfortunately large proportion of 'pro-lifers' support.

[Genivaria]

How do you define a human being? Late-term abortions would often be viable births, so it's not dependant on the mothers body to survive at that point.

Late-term abortions are usually banned except in extremely specific circumstances, and therefore are extremely uncommon. Most abortions happen before 24 weeks.

A human being is a person. A fetus isn't a person.

Noun
human being (plural human beings)

A person; a large sapient, bipedal primate, with notably less hair than others of that order, of the species Homo sapiens.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/human_being

To add to that a person is a concept that greatly overlaps but does not exactly match 'human'.
By the logic we've heard a cancer cell has as much claim to the title of 'human' as a fetus, and if we use the shaky standard of 'has human dna' then hair, blood, and sweat are also 'a human'.

[San Lumen]

You have that inverted. A fetus doesn't meet the criteria by which we typically define the term "human being".

And yes it is human. I didn't say otherwise.

How do you define a human being? Late-term abortions would often be viable births, so it's not dependant on the mothers body to survive at that point.

and they are very rare and only done in the case of toxic pregnancies. Many states ban them except for that purpose

[Greater vakolicci haven]

How do you define a human being? Late-term abortions would often be viable births, so it's not dependant on the mothers body to survive at that point.

and they are very rare and only done in the case of toxic pregnancies. Many states ban them except for that purpose

Didn't NY just legalise them in all circumstances?

Also, since a baby has been born at 21 weeks, surely it's only acceptable (even if you think that abortion is ever acceptable aside for with regard to health, which I don't) to disallow it after that date?

[San Lumen]

and they are very rare and only done in the case of toxic pregnancies. Many states ban them except for that purpose

Didn't NY just legalise them in all circumstances?

Also, since a baby has been born at 21 weeks, surely it's only acceptable (even if you think that abortion is ever acceptable aside for with regard to health, which I don't) to disallow it after that date?

No they didnt

You therefore think a rape or incest victim should be forced to carry to term a child they dont want?