[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[San Lumen]

Are you saying that a life with such problems is not worth living?

Nice sidestep.

Depression, PTSD and anxiety can be -- I imagine --hellish illnesses to endure, and I'm not sure I'd want to wish them on a foetus. I am not advocating abortion, if such things run in the family. That is a choice for the woman alone.

As it is for the woman to choose if it would help her trauma to abort the result of rape.

Now a question for the pro-lifers: if you knew a woman would definitely commit suicide -- or die in childbirth like the fourteen-year-old minor in Paraguay -- would you still deny a rape victim an abortion?

Would you deny her an abortion, even if the victim was very young girl, like this other rape victim in Paraguay (who did survive).

In the latter case she could have permanent bodily harm but to some pro lifers the life of the fetus matters more.

[The Free Joy State]

Nice sidestep.

Depression, PTSD and anxiety can be -- I imagine --hellish illnesses to endure, and I'm not sure I'd want to wish them on a foetus. I am not advocating abortion, if such things run in the family. That is a choice for the woman alone.

As it is for the woman to choose if it would help her trauma to abort the result of rape.

Now a question for the pro-lifers: if you knew a woman would definitely commit suicide -- or die in childbirth like the fourteen-year-old minor in Paraguay -- would you still deny a rape victim an abortion?

Would you deny her an abortion, even if the victim was very young girl, like this other rape victim in Paraguay (who did survive).

The victim of abortion is even younger

The foetus feels nothing and knows nothing.

The rape victim -- the actual victim and a child in both cases in Paraguay -- is conscious of her suffering every day.

[Mardla]

The victim of abortion is even younger

The foetus feels nothing and knows nothing.

The rape victim -- the actual victim and a child in both cases in Paraguay -- is conscious of her suffering every day.

Then by your logic, we should euthanize rape victims in their sleep

[Telconi]

The victim of abortion is even younger

And not really a victim, honestly. If we consider the degree of trauma involved.

There's an experienced trauma threshold on homicide?

[Godular]

incidentally: yay! An actual argument again! The conversation about kids as lumber or whatever that is was off topic as all heck.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The rape victim -- the actual victim and a child in both cases in Paraguay -- is conscious of her suffering every day.

I mean... how can you argue with people that are shilling for the Purveyors of Suffering^tm (est. some time around when Christianity became a thing).

[San Lumen]

The foetus feels nothing and knows nothing.

The rape victim -- the actual victim and a child in both cases in Paraguay -- is conscious of her suffering every day.

Then by your logic, we should euthanize rape victims in their sleep

What is your take on the two examples from Paraguay?

[Godular]

The foetus feels nothing and knows nothing.

The rape victim -- the actual victim and a child in both cases in Paraguay -- is conscious of her suffering every day.

Then by your logic, we should euthanize rape victims in their sleep

What the fuck logic is this? I’m fairly certain that’s the nuttiest shit I heard since peanut crumble.

[The Free Joy State]

The foetus feels nothing and knows nothing.

The rape victim -- the actual victim and a child in both cases in Paraguay -- is conscious of her suffering every day.

Then by your logic, we should euthanize rape victims in their sleep

. . .

Well that was quite the running jump you took from "rape victims, and especially minors, should be able to abort the insensate product of their sexual assault" to "rape victims should be killed in their sleep".

Don't remember saying that.

Besides, an insensate foetus is not like a sleeping person. Born people are still somewhat conscious when we sleep.

[Mardla]

Then by your logic, we should euthanize rape victims in their sleep

. . .

Well that was quite the running jump you took from "rape victims, and especially minors, should be able to abort the insensate product of their sexual assault" to "rape victims should be killed in their sleep".

Don't remember saying that.

Besides, an insensate foetus is not like a sleeping person. Born people are still somewhat conscious when we sleep.

A fetus is a human prior to consciousness

[Nettunia]

As long as people disagree about the attribution of personhood to the foetus the debate will remain sterile(pun totally intended).

[Godular]

. . .

Well that was quite the running jump you took from "rape victims, and especially minors, should be able to abort the insensate product of their sexual assault" to "rape victims should be killed in their sleep".

Don't remember saying that.

Besides, an insensate foetus is not like a sleeping person. Born people are still somewhat conscious when we sleep.

A fetus is a human prior to consciousness

I’d say ‘irrelevant, but DO go on’, but that sounded like you were going for a drop the mic moment.

We have fast reflexes.

[Estanglia]

Nice sidestep.

Depression, PTSD and anxiety can be -- I imagine --hellish illnesses to endure, and I'm not sure I'd want to wish them on a foetus. I am not advocating abortion, if such things run in the family. That is a choice for the woman alone.

As it is for the woman to choose if it would help her trauma to abort the result of rape.

Now a question for the pro-lifers: if you knew a woman would definitely commit suicide -- or die in childbirth like the fourteen-year-old minor in Paraguay -- would you still deny a rape victim an abortion?

Would you deny her an abortion, even if the victim was very young girl, like this other rape victim in Paraguay (who did survive).

The victim of abortion is even younger

So young in fact, most of those aborted aren't fully developed or insensate.

[San Lumen]

. . .

Well that was quite the running jump you took from "rape victims, and especially minors, should be able to abort the insensate product of their sexual assault" to "rape victims should be killed in their sleep".

Don't remember saying that.

Besides, an insensate foetus is not like a sleeping person. Born people are still somewhat conscious when we sleep.

A fetus is a human prior to consciousness

Therefore in the case of the 14 year old rape victim from Paraguay who died in childbirth is perfectly acceptable to you?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

A fetus is a human prior to consciousness

Therefore in the case of the 14 year old rape victim from Paraguay who died in childbirth is perfectly acceptable to you?

The ideology of the Purveyors of Suffering^tm for you.

[Mardla]

A fetus is a human prior to consciousness

I’d say ‘irrelevant, but DO go on’, but that sounded like you were going for a drop the mic moment.

We have fast reflexes.

>human life is irrelevant

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

[Estanglia]

. . .

Well that was quite the running jump you took from "rape victims, and especially minors, should be able to abort the insensate product of their sexual assault" to "rape victims should be killed in their sleep".

Don't remember saying that.

Besides, an insensate foetus is not like a sleeping person. Born people are still somewhat conscious when we sleep.

A fetus is a human prior to consciousness

Yup. And? They're still insensate.

[The Free Joy State]

. . .

Well that was quite the running jump you took from "rape victims, and especially minors, should be able to abort the insensate product of their sexual assault" to "rape victims should be killed in their sleep".

Don't remember saying that.

Besides, an insensate foetus is not like a sleeping person. Born people are still somewhat conscious when we sleep.

A fetus is a human prior to consciousness

Wow! Look at those goalposts fly!

Human it may be. But it does not have priority over the mother. It uses the mother's kidneys, blood. If it is the product of rape, it's existence threatens her wellbeing.

The mother has the right to body integrity and mental wellbeing, and that right overrides any that may ever be said to be possessed by a foetus of (on average) less than 13 weeks old (92% are aborted before 13 weeks).

[Godular]

I’d say ‘irrelevant, but DO go on’, but that sounded like you were going for a drop the mic moment.

We have fast reflexes.

>human life is irrelevant

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

You know what you just said?

The woman isn’t human.

You just did that because you can’t stop using goddamn soundbites.

Crazy pills fo sho.

(I’ll be happy to run through the logic if asked, btw. You never did explain yours.)

[Telconi]

A fetus is a human prior to consciousness

Therefore in the case of the 14 year old rape victim from Paraguay who died in childbirth is perfectly acceptable to you?

I don't recall anyone saying this.

[San Lumen]

Therefore in the case of the 14 year old rape victim from Paraguay who died in childbirth is perfectly acceptable to you?

I don't recall anyone saying this.

Mardia implied it

[Telconi]

I don't recall anyone saying this.

Mardia implied it

No he didn't, you assumed it. because you have difficulty with understanding policy positions.

[Ngelmish]

Mardia implied it

No he didn't, you assumed it. because you have difficulty with understanding policy positions.

You're being disingenuous. Lumen raised what you, disingenuously, hand-waved as "negative repercussions" to suggest that total illegality is a bad policy position to hold (which is empirically verifiable). Mardla then implied that such negative repercussions are not a reason to change the policy, incidentally implying that he finds the incidence of these repercussions to be insignificant in the debate, or vernacularly, that he accepts them as "okay" all things considered.

Of course, this is also what you're implying by being pedantic about it.

[Telconi]

No he didn't, you assumed it. because you have difficulty with understanding policy positions.

You're being disingenuous. Lumen raised what you, disingenuously, hand-waved as "negative repercussions" to suggest that total illegality is a bad policy position to hold (which is empirically verifiable). Mardla then implied that such negative repercussions are not a reason to change the policy, incidentally implying that he finds the incidence of these repercussions to be insignificant in the debate, or vernacularly, that he accepts them as "okay" all things considered.

Of course, this is also what you're implying by being pedantic about it.

Or not. But nice try.

[The Free Joy State]

You're being disingenuous. Lumen raised what you, disingenuously, hand-waved as "negative repercussions" to suggest that total illegality is a bad policy position to hold (which is empirically verifiable). Mardla then implied that such negative repercussions are not a reason to change the policy, incidentally implying that he finds the incidence of these repercussions to be insignificant in the debate, or vernacularly, that he accepts them as "okay" all things considered.

Of course, this is also what you're implying by being pedantic about it.

Or not. But nice try.

Okay, a straight-forward question: would you let a rape victim who was ten/eleven or fourteen, like the girls San Lumen brought up in Paraguay have an abortion?

You said they were an example of "negative repercussions", but what practical steps would you take to ameliorate those repercussions for the rape victim?

EDIT: That was actually two questions. But I am interested. Especially if you (and any pro-lifers) wouldn't agree with abortion.