[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[San Lumen]

Having an abortion does not make someone selfish.

It does, more often than not.

How? Who are you to tell someone to have a child they dont want? What if its rape or incest or a toxic pregnancy?

[Saiwania]

In a situation where someone is more likely to always be in poverty, there is nothing to lose for them if they're already at the bottom in status, if they decide to have kids anyways. They might as well breed while they can, instead of waiting until they're too old to have children. If they can't afford their children, they can always be abandoned to community care or adoption if not foster care.

Why else would all the poorest countries tend to have the highest fertility rates?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

To be selfish, you have to inconvenience someone or "lack consideration for" someone else. Abortion does not inconvenience anyone except the person having the abortion. And honestly, you should have no consideration for anyone who tells you to do something with your body that you don't want to. Something being "easier" doesn't make it selfish, not to mention that abortion isn't easy, ever.

Also abortion for $3000??? Where is it that expensive?

It is lacking consideration for the person to be born, if the child in the womb is developed enough. At the beginning, no question it is not sentient. But the longer a pregnancy progresses, the more its "too late" to do an abortion without terminating a person that is alive technically speaking.

I reject the notion that bodily autonomy is sacrosanct because it is just isn't in my experience. There are many examples of people having things done to them without permission such as getting required immunizations whilst they're too young to object. A lot of people with dementia refuse to shower as one example. Of course they should be forced to take a shower if they're not living on their own and it is in their best interests. The Hippocratic Oath is largely a load of nonsense that interferes with doing what needs to be done in a lot of cases.

Of course abortion is far easier than giving birth, that is sort of the entire point of it. Many women are too unprepared or don't have it in them to carry a pregnancy to the end so they use Abortion as some sort of lifeline that can "bail them out" of an unpleasant situation or experience.

So far as how much Abortions cost in the US, it can range from $0 to $3,275 depending on how a person goes about acquiring such a service. Then again, this is 2014 prices. But I don't expect inflation to have moved it much higher, so it is within that range.

https://clearhealthcosts.com/blog/2014/ ... -theresas/

You can't lack consideration for the desires of a fetus. They have no opinions, they have no feelings, they have no thoughts. By the time a fetus could *possibly* have any sort of sentience, abortions are not elective. But even then there is not any indication that a fetus is aware of anything until birth.

And again, you seem to have this idea that abortion is something pleasant that women just get because birth is unpleasant. But in reality, it's a difficult decision that comes with risks and a fair bit of pain. This is like saying that getting your appendix removed is "bailing them out" of a rupture.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Having an abortion does not make someone selfish.

It does, more often than not.

I wish I could insert that Trump "Wrong" gif here.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

In a situation where someone is more likely to always be in poverty, there is nothing to lose for them if they're already at the bottom in status, if they decide to have kids anyways. They might as well breed while they can, instead of waiting until they're too old to have children. If they can't afford their children, they can always be abandoned to community care or adoption if not foster care.

Why else would all the poorest countries tend to have the highest fertility rates?

The poorest countries have the highest fertility rates because they don't have access to contraceptives, comprehensive sex education, or protections in regards to violence against women.

[Espenia]

Are gifs allowed? Like I am genuinely curious.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Are gifs allowed? Like I am genuinely curious.

Unless the rules have changed, i think you can insert memes or gifs as long as there is some sort of substance to your post. It can't be a standalone image, and preferably under a spoiler tag.

[Espenia]

Are gifs allowed? Like I am genuinely curious.

Unless the rules have changed, i think you can insert memes or gifs as long as there is some sort of substance to your post. It can't be a standalone image, and preferably under a spoiler tag.

Ah ok! Thank you for that

[Saiwania]

The poorest countries have the highest fertility rates because they don't have access to contraceptives, comprehensive sex education, or protections in regards to violence against women.

I don't quite buy this. My sense is that if developed countries got rid of all contraceptives, sex education, and rolled back women's rights, that such countries would still have lower birth rates to contend with. Romania wasn't exactly successful in that venture when they tried. There are obviously more reasons behind why countries such as Japan- are full of people who don't ever want to reproduce or are unable to, because it'll hurt their career, there is a lack of affordable daycare, or whatever.

[USS Monitor]

If someone has moral reservations about abortion, then reducing the number of abortions is still productive, even if you don't get everyone to agree with you.

But then the question becomes how? One side generally thinks that in order to reduce them, they need to be banned and sluts need to keep their legs closed, while the other generally believes in comprehensive sex ed and easy access to protection, which the former hates, while the latter finds the formers ideas abhorrent.

And then we go around and around and around and around and around and around...

That's why you should discuss different ideas and see if there are any that you can find common ground on.

For example, you don't have to agree about sexual morality to look at ways of making children more affordable.

[New haven america]

The poorest countries have the highest fertility rates because they don't have access to contraceptives, comprehensive sex education, or protections in regards to violence against women.

I don't quite buy this. My sense is that if developed countries got rid of all contraceptives, sex education, and rolled back women's rights, that such countries would still have lower birth rates to contend with. Romania wasn't exactly successful in that venture when they tried. There are obviously more reasons behind why countries such as Japan- are full of people who don't ever want to reproduce or are unable to, because it'll hurt their career, there is a lack of affordable daycare, or whatever.

Biology, history, psychology, economics, and... Anthropology.

Yeah, that sounds about right.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

The poorest countries have the highest fertility rates because they don't have access to contraceptives, comprehensive sex education, or protections in regards to violence against women.

I don't quite buy this. My sense is that if developed countries got rid of all contraceptives, sex education, and rolled back women's rights, that such countries would still have lower birth rates to contend with. Romania wasn't exactly successful in that venture when they tried. There are obviously more reasons behind why countries such as Japan- are full of people who don't ever want to reproduce or are unable to, because it'll hurt their career, there is a lack of affordable daycare, or whatever.

Sure, they're not the only reasons, but they are massive factors. One of the biggest reasons is that poor countries tend to be countries where women's rights haven't advanced much. Women are either not able to hold jobs, or jobs they do hold do not pay well enough for them to have economic stability without being under the care of a higher-earning father or husband. Their ability to have career advancements or higher education opportunities are frequently nonexistent. Traditionalist beliefs that women are supposed to be homemakers and give birth frequently run rampant and women often do not have a choice in the matter. Theres also the matter of neonatal and childhood mortality rate coupled with the fact that many families rely on subsistence farming - You have more kids because they die frequently, and you need hands on the farm so you have to keep replacing the dead ones.

Poor country fertility rates have absolutely nothing to do with "Well poor folk are already poor might as well have 13 kids."

[Saiwania]

Traditionalist beliefs that women are supposed to be homemakers and give birth

This is correct for the most part, in my view. Societies that're run in accordance to that, tend to be better off. Just look at China, they're dominating the world.

[Katganistan]

To be selfish, you have to inconvenience someone or "lack consideration for" someone else. Abortion does not inconvenience anyone except the person having the abortion. And honestly, you should have no consideration for anyone who tells you to do something with your body that you don't want to. Something being "easier" doesn't make it selfish, not to mention that abortion isn't easy, ever.

Also abortion for $3000??? Where is it that expensive?

Maybe he lives in Missouri?

That is rather high. Tends to run 350-950 through planned parenthood. More when it’s in the second trimester.

Which is why, among other reasons, it is imperative to keep Planned Parenthood going. They provide contraception, info about stds and getting tested, info about mammograms and such, as well as abortions.

Curiously, in contrast to what they are often characterized as, they say this to teens on their site:

What’s the best way to protect myself from STDs and pregnancy?

The only 100% certain way to avoid STDs is to not do any sexual stuff that involves body fluids or skin-to-skin touching with another person (including oral, anal, and vaginal sex).

And the only 100% certain way to avoid pregnancy is to not have penis-in-vagina sex, or do any sexual stuff where sperm can touch a vulva or vagina (this is called abstinence).

But let’s get real: most people do have sex at some point in their life. And there are ways to help protect yourself from STDs and/or pregnancy if you decide to have sex.

Using safer sex barriers (like condoms and dental dams) every time you have oral, anal, or vaginal sex helps protect you from STDs. And using birth control (including condoms) every time you have penis-in-vagina sex helps prevent pregnancy.

Condoms are the only type of birth control that helps prevent pregnancy and STDs at the same time. But if you have penis-in-vagina sex, the best way to protect yourself is to use condoms PLUS another birth control method — like the pill, IUD, implant, or shot. That way you’re protected from STDs, and double-protected from pregnancy.

Getting tested for STDs regularly and talking honestly with people you hook up with about preventing pregnancy and/or STDs is another way to keep yourself healthy.

So, kind of telling them off the bat that not having sex is the only 100% sure way not to get pregnant or get and STD, but if they choose to have sex, what they should consider/do.

[Katganistan]

Having an abortion does not make someone selfish.

It does, more often than not.

That's simply your opinion.

[Neanderthaland]

If you want to give the best possible upbringing for your child, then having a child at a time where you are not financially prepared is detrimental to them. Having an abortion, and bringing a child into the world at a time of greater financial security would be in their best interest.

The rub is that sometimes, you'll never truly be "financially prepared" to raise a child. Because you'll always be poor or a low earner because you're incompetent or don't have it in you to raise your income or earning potential by much, and being poor has a way of keeping someone poor- unless they're cutthroat or ruthless enough to economically climb via saving and investing and etc. despite every obstacle in their path towards success in life.

So? I mean, that sucks for people in poverty. But your stance of, "have kids you can't properly look after now, because life is hopeless anyway," is frankly dumb.

Plenty of people have abortions precisely because they would be in a better place to support a child if they had one after school/college/marriage/promotion etc. It's not that they don't want to have children ever, just that having one now would be bad for them, and bad for the child.

[Pacomia]

Traditionalist beliefs that women are supposed to be homemakers and give birth

This is correct for the most part, in my view. Societies that're run in accordance to that, tend to be better off. Just look at China, they're dominating the world.

And yet so is the US, which increasingly goes against that. Similar deal in most of Western Europe, which is really the best-off part of the world.

[Saiwania]

And yet so is the US, which increasingly goes against that. Similar deal in most of Western Europe, which is really the best-off part of the world.

No, the US and Europe are in terminal decline, so is Japan and most of the White developed world which is increasingly becoming non-White. China is rising to most of the entire rest of the world's expense. China should've been stopped while there was still a chance for that. But China becoming a super power is near inevitable now.

So? I mean, that sucks for people in poverty. But your stance of, "have kids you can't properly look after now, because life is hopeless anyway," is frankly dumb.

It isn't dumb, if people in such a situation don't necessarily have to pay or care for their children. If a person is too poor, the state will take their kid away or allow them to relinquish said child. Provided someone breeds 2 to 3 kids they can't afford but doesn't go beyond that, the state won't want to sterilize them because they're a cost burden on the state's coffers. Most developed nations are desperate for more kids being born because of very low fertility. So if a poorer person reproduces too much in relation to the rest of the population, it is a boon from that government's perspective if that helps things towards replacement level fertility.

[Katganistan]

And yet so is the US, which increasingly goes against that. Similar deal in most of Western Europe, which is really the best-off part of the world.

No, the US and Europe are in terminal decline, so is Japan and most of the White developed world which is increasingly becoming non-White. China is rising to most of the entire rest of the world's expense. China should've been stopped while there was still a chance for that. But China becoming a super power is near inevitable now.

Well, given that the vast majority of the people in the world are not white (about 2 billion whites out of 7.7 billion) becoming "increasingly non-White" is pretty much the natural and average way of things.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Traditionalist beliefs that women are supposed to be homemakers and give birth

This is correct for the most part, in my view. Societies that're run in accordance to that, tend to be better off. Just look at China, they're dominating the world.

No.

[Pacomia]

And yet so is the US, which increasingly goes against that. Similar deal in most of Western Europe, which is really the best-off part of the world.

No, the US and Europe are in terminal decline, so is Japan and most of the White developed world which is increasingly becoming non-White. China is rising to most of the entire rest of the world's expense. China should've been stopped while there was still a chance for that. But China becoming a super power is near inevitable now.

Always about the decline of white people for you, isn’t it?

[Neanderthaland]

Traditionalist beliefs that women are supposed to be homemakers and give birth

This is correct for the most part, in my view. Societies that're run in accordance to that, tend to be better off. Just look at China, they're dominating the world.

The country with a huge number of abortions, and especially abortions of girls, is the one you're pointing to to prop up your anti-abortion stance regarding the proper role of women?

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

No, the US and Europe are in terminal decline, so is Japan and most of the White developed world which is increasingly becoming non-White. China is rising to most of the entire rest of the world's expense. China should've been stopped while there was still a chance for that. But China becoming a super power is near inevitable now.

Always about the decline of white people for you, isn’t it?

Racists/Sexists are certainly bold these days.

[Saiwania]

Always about the decline of white people for you, isn’t it?

How can I stand idly by as my people are allowing themselves to be destroyed via Liberal politics and disastrous decisions such as mass immigration from the developing world? We can't have nationalist populism fast enough to reverse and undo what is going on.

[Stagnant Axon Terminal]

Always about the decline of white people for you, isn’t it?

How can I stand idly by as my kin are allowing themselves to be destroyed via Liberal politics and disastrous decisions such as mass immigration from the developing world?

Being white is not an important trait nor is it relevant to this discussion.