[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[The Alma Mater]

Scientifically false.


Misotheism is a thing.

Misotheism is just self-destructive antitheism.

True; but usually antitheists are atheists. Misotheists do actually believe in a god or gods.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It's important, when analyzing the morality of what you believe to be fictional characters, do you not suppose that the fictional characters are real for the sake of argument?

I mean, no? Like, last year, for AP English, I had to write a paper on the Great Gatsby (shitty book, by the way.) Never stopped to consider Jay real or not. He was just a fictional asshole.

But regardless, when talking to how your god interacts with physical reality, it’s kind of important to take reality into account.

You have to suspend your disbelief in order to judge whether he's an asshole or not, is my point. If God isn't real, it doesn't really matter if the Bible says he killed people.

[Grenartia]

Well, hold on here.

I very much doubt the Hebrew God was given any exemption under ancient Egyptian law, even if said law recognized His/Her/Their existence.

As for presently, American law is essentially agnostic on the subject of God's existence (flowery flavor text from various political figures in our history and present notwithstanding). But even, for the sake of argument, if it did acknowledge the existence of God, nowhere in any law that I'm aware of, is God exempted from the laws of the United States, in areas under its jurisdiction.

I.E., if God physically manifested in the middle of downtown LA, DC, NYC, NOLA, or any other major city, and started killing every person in that area under the age of 18, in an obvious way (say, lightning bolts projected from His/Her/Their eyeballs or some goofy-ass shit like that), with clear evidence of it (video, eyewitness, the works); there is no law that says God is immune from arrest, prosecution, trial, and conviction for those crimes.

At least in California murder is explicitly an act committed by a person. As God is not such, the law wouldn't apply.

Person can easily understood to be any entity acting with a will of its own.

You could make the same argument about aliens. But I very much doubt that if some random alien escaped from Area 51 and went on a revenge killing spree down the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and was promptly apprehended by law enforcement, that it wouldn't be immune to prosecution for murder under California law (at least disregarding any federal government claims of jurisdictional supremacy), and certainly not on the grounds that it isn't human. Same with God.

Well, hold on here.

I very much doubt the Hebrew God was given any exemption under ancient Egyptian law, even if said law recognized His/Her/Their existence.

As for presently, American law is essentially agnostic on the subject of God's existence (flowery flavor text from various political figures in our history and present notwithstanding). But even, for the sake of argument, if it did acknowledge the existence of God, nowhere in any law that I'm aware of, is God exempted from the laws of the United States, in areas under its jurisdiction.

I.E., if God physically manifested in the middle of downtown LA, DC, NYC, NOLA, or any other major city, and started killing every person in that area under the age of 18, in an obvious way (say, lightning bolts projected from His/Her/Their eyeballs or some goofy-ass shit like that), with clear evidence of it (video, eyewitness, the works); there is no law that says God is immune from arrest, prosecution, trial, and conviction for those crimes.

There is no court that has jurisdiction to try God, nor would it have the ability.

I see no reason to believe no court has the jurisdiction. If by ability, you mean the physical ability to, then I'll certainly grant you that. If, however, you mean legal legitimacy to do so, assuming it has the physical ability to, then I see no reason to believe that, either.

Moreover, God is not a person.

As I pointed out above, that is irrelevant to the discussion.

[Galloism]

Just that words have definitions Kat. Isn’t it important to use words according to their actual definitions instead of ones you make up for yourself?

You keep using murder, but it’s specifically legally not murder.

Neither is abortion, but apparently you haven't caught on that that was the point I'm making.

No, it isn’t.

But I never contested that. I just pointed out that, by your own standards of verbal exchange, you can’t use murder to describe killing that God has done, because it wasn’t illegal and classified as murder.

[New haven america]

I have serious doubts they had laws to prosecute foreign gods.

Or their own. I dunno if the Egyptian gods received judgment from anyone, did they?

Not really, no.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I have serious doubts they had laws to prosecute foreign gods.

Considering most civilizations had laws persecuting the worshippers of foreign gods (And still do in a lot of areas), I doubt persecuting a foreign god itself wouldn't be possible.

I very, very much doubt persecuting a foreign god would be possible considering they're, well, a god.

[Katganistan]

I'm not responding from emotion. It's this thing called logic. And feel free to go to the Christian thread yourself, since it appears your reason to be here is to make me the topic.

Nobody ever said you were the topic, certainly not me. The topic was apparently something you wanted to move from, but then not because...someone was wrong about God? I dunno. Logic also requires not speaking in pure, utter rage to every post someone makes that you don’t like or agree with. And I already hang in CDT often.

Do me a favor and just stop talking about me, to me, and at me. It's very transparent what you're doing here, jumping in from out of nowhere.

[New haven america]

Considering most civilizations had laws persecuting the worshippers of foreign gods (And still do in a lot of areas), I doubt persecuting a foreign god itself wouldn't be possible.

I very, very much doubt persecuting a foreign god would be possible considering they're, well, a god.

If a guy was able to start a war with the ocean, a god can be persecuted.

[Katganistan]

I mean, he also genocided most of the human race and other animal life, burned down 2 cities killing the majority of their population, kill all the non-Jewish firstborns of Egypt, let Satan run loose and kill Job's entire family, etc...

Yeah, no, that sounds like murder to me.

It's not illegal, so by definition, it can't be murder.

Then logically, neither is abortion. Thank you.

[New haven america]

Killing fetuses is murder.
Killing children is fine, when God does it.

Hypocrisy abounds.

Just that words have definitions Kat. Isn’t it important to use words according to their actual definitions instead of ones you make up for yourself?

You keep using murder, but it’s specifically legally not murder.

So why do pro-lifers get to claim abortion is murder?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Misotheism is just self-destructive antitheism.

True; but usually antitheists are atheists. Misotheists do actually believe in a god or gods.

So like I said, self-destructive antitheists.

It's not illegal, so by definition, it can't be murder.

Then logically, neither is abortion. Thank you.

We can make it illegal.

And should

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I very, very much doubt persecuting a foreign god would be possible considering they're, well, a god.

If a guy was able to start a war with the ocean, a god can be persecuted.

The guy lost the war with the ocean. Horribly.

[New haven america]

If a guy was able to start a war with the ocean, a god can be persecuted.

The guy lost the war with the ocean. Horribly.

But he could still do it, and that's all that matters.

[Rostavykhan]

I mean, he also genocided most of the human race and other animal life, burned down 2 cities killing the majority of their population, kill all the non-Jewish firstborns of Egypt, let Satan run loose and kill Job's entire family, etc...

Yeah, no, that sounds like murder to me.

I mean, we can't really have it both ways. Either A) We use the word murder to refer to the distinct legal concept. or B) We use the word murder to refer to killing people we don't like.

if A) God has never murdered

But what is murder?

Hey, Vsauce, Micheal here.

[Telconi]

At least in California murder is explicitly an act committed by a person. As God is not such, the law wouldn't apply.

Person can easily understood to be any entity acting with a will of its own.

You could make the same argument about aliens. But I very much doubt that if some random alien escaped from Area 51 and went on a revenge killing spree down the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and was promptly apprehended by law enforcement, that it wouldn't be immune to prosecution for murder under California law (at least disregarding any federal government claims of jurisdictional supremacy), and certainly not on the grounds that it isn't human. Same with God.

There is no court that has jurisdiction to try God, nor would it have the ability.

I see no reason to believe no court has the jurisdiction. If by ability, you mean the physical ability to, then I'll certainly grant you that. If, however, you mean legal legitimacy to do so, assuming it has the physical ability to, then I see no reason to believe that, either.

Moreover, God is not a person.

As I pointed out above, that is irrelevant to the discussion.

Likely an alien would be considered a foreign combatant. As they're not a United States citizen, but rather a member of a foreign legal entity waging war against the people.

Secondly, as for your belief of jurisdiction, this is, again, a distinct legal concept. A court doesn't have jurisdiction because you do or do not see reasons to believe it does. A court has jurisdiction over all whom it explicitly has jurisdiction over by law.

[Luminesa]

Nobody ever said you were the topic, certainly not me. The topic was apparently something you wanted to move from, but then not because...someone was wrong about God? I dunno. Logic also requires not speaking in pure, utter rage to every post someone makes that you don’t like or agree with. And I already hang in CDT often.

Do me a favor and just stop talking about me, to me, and at me. It's very transparent what you're doing here, jumping in from out of nowhere.

I’m just saying what I observed from the posts as I was following the conversation. But whatever.

[Telconi]

It's not illegal, so by definition, it can't be murder.

Then logically, neither is abortion. Thank you.

Or the holocaust. Interestingly enough.

[Galloism]

Just that words have definitions Kat. Isn’t it important to use words according to their actual definitions instead of ones you make up for yourself?

You keep using murder, but it’s specifically legally not murder.

So why do pro-lifers get to claim abortion is murder?

Probably for the same reason misotheists do regarding killings performed by God.

Verbally, it’s more impactful, and they feel it should be illegal or punishable, so they classify it that way.

It of course doesn’t fit current legal codes in either case, but it wasn’t really used that specifically anyway.

[Grenartia]

Well, hold on here.

I very much doubt the Hebrew God was given any exemption under ancient Egyptian law, even if said law recognized His/Her/Their existence.

As for presently, American law is essentially agnostic on the subject of God's existence (flowery flavor text from various political figures in our history and present notwithstanding). But even, for the sake of argument, if it did acknowledge the existence of God, nowhere in any law that I'm aware of, is God exempted from the laws of the United States, in areas under its jurisdiction.

I.E., if God physically manifested in the middle of downtown LA, DC, NYC, NOLA, or any other major city, and started killing every person in that area under the age of 18, in an obvious way (say, lightning bolts projected from His/Her/Their eyeballs or some goofy-ass shit like that), with clear evidence of it (video, eyewitness, the works); there is no law that says God is immune from arrest, prosecution, trial, and conviction for those crimes.

However, acts of god generally exempt anyone from legal liability, and are specifically classified as acts for which no person can be held responsible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_God

God likely wouldn’t be classified as a person under English common law, not being human, and only persons can commit murder.

The general definition of murder is:

The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

Although exact verbiage can vary by jurisdiction. As God is not a human being, he can’t kill another human being without justification or excuse - only a human being.

Assuming God's defense attorneys used those same arguments, any prosecutor worth their salt would definitely poke holes all over that flimsy defense.

There is no court that has jurisdiction to try God, nor would it have the ability. Moreover, God is not a person.

Don't be silly, every court has the jurisdisction. God however is so powerful that he can ignore whatever it says.

Then again, last time he was tried and sentenced to death by a human court he accepted the punishment.

Clear legal precedent.

Well, hold on here.

I very much doubt the Hebrew God was given any exemption under ancient Egyptian law, even if said law recognized His/Her/Their existence.

As for presently, American law is essentially agnostic on the subject of God's existence (flowery flavor text from various political figures in our history and present notwithstanding). But even, for the sake of argument, if it did acknowledge the existence of God, nowhere in any law that I'm aware of, is God exempted from the laws of the United States, in areas under its jurisdiction.

I.E., if God physically manifested in the middle of downtown LA, DC, NYC, NOLA, or any other major city, and started killing every person in that area under the age of 18, in an obvious way (say, lightning bolts projected from His/Her/Their eyeballs or some goofy-ass shit like that), with clear evidence of it (video, eyewitness, the works); there is no law that says God is immune from arrest, prosecution, trial, and conviction for those crimes.

Laws don't account for deities. Imagine trying to arrest, prosecute, try, and convict a hurricane or other natural disaster; it just doesn't work.

Hurricanes, unlike deities, do not act with their own will.

[Katganistan]

This is still not a convo for the abortion thread, but more for the Christian thread. Also I was only pointing out that either on this version or another, all three of those points have already been answered. For a short answer, however, a painter has the freedom to take back or hide whatever they themselves have made. God made us. Therefore God can take us back or do what He wants. Kinda like how a parent might say, “I put you in this world, and I can take you out of it!” But literally. Especially since Christians believe He created everything. But again, Christian thread. Thanks.

So, you just said you can take a child out of this world, because you made it.

Don't look for logic. You're not going to find it in this argument.

[Kowani]

True; but usually antitheists are atheists. Misotheists do actually believe in a god or gods.

So like I said, self-destructive antitheists.

Then logically, neither is abortion. Thank you.

We can make it illegal.

And should

Because?

[Luminesa]

Errrrrm some hurricanes seem like they have their own will sometimes. Or meteorologists are just bad at predicting where they wanna go.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

The guy lost the war with the ocean. Horribly.

But he could still do it, and that's all that matters.

He couldn't. That's why he lost.

[New haven america]

Then logically, neither is abortion. Thank you.

Or the holocaust. Interestingly enough.

Goodwin's Law, take a shot everyone!

[Luminesa]

So, you just said you can take a child out of this world, because you made it.

Don't look for logic. You're not going to find it in this argument.

I already answered this person, thank you.