[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[Grapasia]

alexa play hoes mad

...what?

I like babies more than I like a lack of consequences for mashing them up

[Necroghastia]

...what?

I like babies more than I like a lack of consequences for mashing them up

...Good thing no one's doing that, then?

[The Free Joy State]

...what?

I like babies more than I like a lack of consequences for mashing them up

What an evocative and utterly inaccurate image!

Foetuses are not babies. Most abortions are performed at less than 10 weeks. And they are typically non-surgical (by pill or injection).

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

...what?

I like babies more than I like a lack of consequences for mashing them up

Emotive appeal noted and discarded.

[Grapasia]

I like babies more than I like a lack of consequences for mashing them up

What an evocative and utterly inaccurate image!

Foetuses are not babies. Most abortions are performed at less than 10 weeks. And they are typically non-surgical (by pill or injection).

https://news.yahoo.com/illinois-house-p ... 23174.html
If only the situation stayed that way and the slippery slope was just a fallacy.
Abortion is as disheartening as it is in the eyes of certain people for a reason. You have the ability to create life, you conceive the beginnings of that life (even if it is an unconscious meat popsicle floating around in a uterus) and then you terminate it before it has a chance to exist as you do at will using technology developed to save lives. It's spooked and it's feelsy but that reaction exists within the framework of the human psyche for a reason, and to pretend that abortion is about anything other than freedom from consequences of one's actions with that in mind is disingenuous in my opinion. Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise. If you told me to walk between the roofs of two buildings on a tightrope, I would be much more willing to have a go with a safety harness on than I would without. What kind of behaviour do we want to encourage among the people we see every day and our posterity? What kind of attitude towards life in general to we want to encourage? Due to human nature we cannot always have nice things sadly, just ask the average person about their thoughts on communism and you'll find that they too agree with this general concept on some level.

[The Alma Mater]

What an evocative and utterly inaccurate image!

Foetuses are not babies. Most abortions are performed at less than 10 weeks. And they are typically non-surgical (by pill or injection).

https://news.yahoo.com/illinois-house-p ... 23174.html
If only the situation stayed that way and the slippery slope was just a fallacy.
Abortion is as disheartening as it is in the eyes of certain people for a reason. You have the ability to create life, you conceive the beginnings of that life (even if it is an unconscious meat popsicle floating around in a uterus) and then you terminate it before it has a chance to exist as you do at will using technology developed to save lives. It's spooked and it's feelsy but that reaction exists within the framework of the human psyche for a reason, and to pretend that abortion is about anything other than freedom from consequences of one's actions with that in mind is disingenuous in my opinion. Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise. If you told me to walk between the roofs of two buildings on a tightrope, I would be much more willing to have a go with a safety harness on than I would without. What kind of behaviour do we want to encourage among the people we see every day and our posterity? What kind of attitude towards life in general to we want to encourage? Due to human nature we cannot always have nice things sadly, just ask the average person about their thoughts on communism and you'll find that they too agree with this general concept on some level.

Except for the small detail that having an abortion IS accepting consequences, just like accepting surgery after a car accident where you did not wear you seatbelt.
Not accepting consquences is shrugging the pregnancy off, having the kid and tossing it in a dumpster. The Catholic solution.

[Grapasia]

I like babies more than I like a lack of consequences for mashing them up

Emotive appeal noted and discarded.

The above post addresses this. What looks like sad sack moral posturing over dead babies should become a lot more important to you when the act of mashing them up is quite evidently related to the way people behave in general, depending on whether or not they are given a safety net for their dysfunctional actions. It is just as important to you and society in general as the state teaching children to read is, or (a better comparison) respect for the elderly is.

[Gormwood]

https://news.yahoo.com/illinois-house-p ... 23174.html
If only the situation stayed that way and the slippery slope was just a fallacy.
Abortion is as disheartening as it is in the eyes of certain people for a reason. You have the ability to create life, you conceive the beginnings of that life (even if it is an unconscious meat popsicle floating around in a uterus) and then you terminate it before it has a chance to exist as you do at will using technology developed to save lives. It's spooked and it's feelsy but that reaction exists within the framework of the human psyche for a reason, and to pretend that abortion is about anything other than freedom from consequences of one's actions with that in mind is disingenuous in my opinion. Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise. If you told me to walk between the roofs of two buildings on a tightrope, I would be much more willing to have a go with a safety harness on than I would without. What kind of behaviour do we want to encourage among the people we see every day and our posterity? What kind of attitude towards life in general to we want to encourage? Due to human nature we cannot always have nice things sadly, just ask the average person about their thoughts on communism and you'll find that they too agree with this general concept on some level.

Except for the small detail that having an abortion IS accepting consequences, just like accepting surgery after a car accident where you did not wear you seatbelt.

Nothing suspicious about a freshly baked account jumping on with a hyperbolic stance on abortion.

[Necroghastia]

Emotive appeal noted and discarded.

The above post addresses this. What looks like sad sack moral posturing over dead babies should become a lot more important to you when the act of mashing them up is quite evidently related to the way people behave in general, depending on whether or not they are given a safety net for their dysfunctional actions. It is just as important to you and society in general as the state teaching children to read is, or (a better comparison) respect for the elderly is.

Who's mashing up babies?

[Grapasia]

https://news.yahoo.com/illinois-house-p ... 23174.html
If only the situation stayed that way and the slippery slope was just a fallacy.
Abortion is as disheartening as it is in the eyes of certain people for a reason. You have the ability to create life, you conceive the beginnings of that life (even if it is an unconscious meat popsicle floating around in a uterus) and then you terminate it before it has a chance to exist as you do at will using technology developed to save lives. It's spooked and it's feelsy but that reaction exists within the framework of the human psyche for a reason, and to pretend that abortion is about anything other than freedom from consequences of one's actions with that in mind is disingenuous in my opinion. Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise. If you told me to walk between the roofs of two buildings on a tightrope, I would be much more willing to have a go with a safety harness on than I would without. What kind of behaviour do we want to encourage among the people we see every day and our posterity? What kind of attitude towards life in general to we want to encourage? Due to human nature we cannot always have nice things sadly, just ask the average person about their thoughts on communism and you'll find that they too agree with this general concept on some level.

Except for the small detail that having an abortion IS accepting consequences, just like accepting surgery after a car accident where you did not wear you seatbelt.

So getting pregnant is on the same level as getting into a car accident? Reproducing is on the same level as having to be put on dialysis for rhabdomyolysis and needing to get your arteries cauterised by a doctor? Is this a healthy attitude for the average person to hold?

Except for the small detail that having an abortion IS accepting consequences, just like accepting surgery after a car accident where you did not wear you seatbelt.

Nothing suspicious about a freshly baked account jumping on with a hyperbolic stance on abortion.

How is this hyperbolic at all? I am willing to acknowledge that there isn't much going on inside the head of somebody/thing without a heartbeat.

[The Free Joy State]

What an evocative and utterly inaccurate image!

Foetuses are not babies. Most abortions are performed at less than 10 weeks. And they are typically non-surgical (by pill or injection).

https://news.yahoo.com/illinois-house-p ... 23174.html
If only the situation stayed that way and the slippery slope was just a fallacy.
Abortion is as disheartening as it is in the eyes of certain people for a reason. You have the ability to create life, you conceive the beginnings of that life (even if it is an unconscious meat popsicle floating around in a uterus) and then you terminate it before it has a chance to exist as you do at will using technology developed to save lives. It's spooked and it's feelsy but that reaction exists within the framework of the human psyche for a reason, and to pretend that abortion is about anything other than freedom from consequences of one's actions with that in mind is disingenuous in my opinion. Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise. If you told me to walk between the roofs of two buildings on a tightrope, I would be much more willing to have a go with a safety harness on than I would without. What kind of behaviour do we want to encourage among the people we see every day and our posterity? What kind of attitude towards life in general to we want to encourage? Due to human nature we cannot always have nice things sadly, just ask the average person about their thoughts on communism and you'll find that they too agree with this general concept on some level.

Okay... Let's try to untangle this...

https://news.yahoo.com/illinois-house-p ... 23174.htmlIf only the situation stayed that way and the slippery slope was just a fallacy.

I never claimed abortions were only performed before 10 weeks.

When abortions are performed late term (which is rare, about 1.3% of pregnancies are performed after 21 weeks), they are generally performed for medical reasons -- either for the foetus or mother (or, sometimes, because super-restrictive laws made abortion hard to access earlier).

You have the ability to create life, you conceive the beginnings of that life (even if it is an unconscious meat popsicle floating around in a uterus) and then you terminate it before it has a chance to exist as you do at will using technology developed to save lives

Appeal to emotion, noted and ignored.

Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise.

Firstly, abortion is not being free of the consequences. Having an abortion involves taking responsibility. And it is not true that lack of availability of abortions will lead to people not seeking abortions, or needing abortions. Countries with restrictive abortion laws have just as many, if not more abortions as countries with more liberal abortion laws.

In the USA, with the population of 327.2 million, there were a reported 638,169 abortions in 2015. In Brazil, with a population of 209.7 million (where abortion is illegal in all circumstances), 1-4 million abortions are performed each year.

What kind of behaviour do we want to encourage among the people we see every day and our posterity?

Respecting the bodily sovereignty of born people would be a good place to start.

[The Alma Mater]

Except for the small detail that having an abortion IS accepting consequences, just like accepting surgery after a car accident where you did not wear you seatbelt.

So getting pregnant is on the same level as getting into a car accident? Reproducing is on the same level as having to be put on dialysis for rhabdomyolysis and needing to get your arteries cauterised by a doctor? Is this a healthy attitude for the average person to hold?

If you prefer we can compare being pregnant to giving another person a 9-month livesaving bloodtransfusion.
And then note that you have the right to stop that transfusion at every time you desire, even though that kills the recipient.

But yes. If we are talking about consequences the getting surgery after not wearing a seatbelt analogy is accurate.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

What an evocative and utterly inaccurate image!

Foetuses are not babies. Most abortions are performed at less than 10 weeks. And they are typically non-surgical (by pill or injection).

https://news.yahoo.com/illinois-house-p ... 23174.html

1. Yay, some sanity!
2. Doesn’t necessarily address FJS’ point.

If only the situation stayed that way and the slippery slope was just a fallacy.

It IS a fallacy, and for good reason.

Abortion is as disheartening as it is in the eyes of certain people for a reason. You have the ability to create life, you conceive the beginnings of that life (even if it is an unconscious meat popsicle floating around in a uterus) and then you terminate it before it has a chance to exist as you do at will using technology developed to save lives. It's spooked and it's feelsy but that reaction exists within the framework of the human psyche for a reason, and to pretend that abortion is about anything other than freedom from consequences of one's actions with that in mind is disingenuous in my opinion.

It is moreso to claim that women get abortions to be ‘free of consequences’. Also more than a little misogynistic, when taken in concert with your ‘hoes mad’ jab.

Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise. If you told me to walk between the roofs of two buildings on a tightrope, I would be much more willing to have a go with a safety harness on than I would without.

Shitty comparison makes a shitty point. Also, pregnancy as a punishment! I’d tell everyone to drink, but if this were an actual drinking game we would long ago have died to alcohol poisoning on that line alone.

What kind of behaviour do we want to encourage among the people we see every day and our posterity?

Equitable behavior, where the woman isn’t called a ‘slut’ for having the temerity to realize she does not wish to be pregnant.

What kind of attitude towards life in general to we want to encourage?

Where women can provide the best environment and atmosphere for their child WHEN they decide to bring one into the world.

Due to human nature we cannot always have nice things sadly.

Doesn’t mean you should actively make it WORSE.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Emotive appeal noted and discarded.

The above post addresses this.

No, it does not. Your use of ‘mashing’ as a term reflects little more than your ignorance of the process and an attempt to say ‘abortion is icky’.

Most any medical procedure is. That is no excuse to ban ‘any medical procedure’.

[The New California Republic]

...what?

I like babies more than I like a lack of consequences for mashing them up

And who is doing that? Abortion doesn't involve that.

then you terminate it before it has a chance to exist as you do at will using technology developed to save lives.

What technology are you referring to?

to pretend that abortion is about anything other than freedom from consequences of one's actions with that in mind is disingenuous in my opinion.

It's nice to see that you are using the same arguments that have been debunked thousands of times on this and past abortion threads. It makes it easier just to ignore such parts of your argument and move on.

Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise.

Having an abortion in and of itself is very often a negative experience for a woman, because of the stress involved in it; so saying that an abortion leaves a woman free of negative consequences is categorically bullshit.

Due to human nature we cannot always have nice things sadly, just ask the average person about their thoughts on communism and you'll find that they too agree with this general concept on some level.

What the fuck is with this randomly thrown in reference to communism? It makes no sense.

[Godular]

Except for the small detail that having an abortion IS accepting consequences, just like accepting surgery after a car accident where you did not wear you seatbelt.

So getting pregnant is on the same level as getting into a car accident? Reproducing is on the same level as having to be put on dialysis for rhabdomyolysis and needing to get your arteries cauterised by a doctor? Is this a healthy attitude for the average person to hold?

You just compared it to falling off a tightrope, so... hello mister No-Room-To-Talk, I'm Calling-You-On-Your-Bullshit! Nice to meet you!

[Grapasia]

Unfortunately, being free of the negative consequences of your actions usually leads you to behave in a much more dysfunctional way than you would have otherwise.

Firstly, abortion is not being free of the consequences. Having an abortion involves taking responsibility.

Taking responsibility at the last minute isn't a good thing.
Regards, most people (I'd imagine) here's time at high school and university.

In the USA, with the population of 327.2 million, there were a reported 638,169 abortions in 2015. In Brazil, with a population of 209.7 million (where abortion is illegal in all circumstances), 1-4 million abortions are performed each year.

Brazil is not a good place to live man, their society has the negatives of both the first and third world. Look at their homicide rate and tell me that is a society as functional as America. Are you suggesting Brazil should embrace the fact it needs that many abortions?

What kind of behaviour do we want to encourage among the people we see every day and our posterity?

Respecting the bodily sovereignty of born people would be a good place to start.

Bodily sovereignty to do what? There was no Peace of Westphalia for reproductive organs. I'd rather not pay as much for people's truvada and diabetes meds if the people able to guide society can help it at all.

[The New California Republic]

Regards, most people (I'd imagine) here's time at high school and university.

Huh? What?

In the USA, with the population of 327.2 million, there were a reported 638,169 abortions in 2015. In Brazil, with a population of 209.7 million (where abortion is illegal in all circumstances), 1-4 million abortions are performed each year.

Are you suggesting Brazil should embrace the fact it needs that many abortions?

I see that you completely missed the point that Free Joy was making.

[Grapasia]

If you prefer we can compare being pregnant to giving another person a 9-month livesaving bloodtransfusion.
And then note that you have the right to stop that transfusion at every time you desire, even though that kills the recipient.

Okay, this is epic.

So getting pregnant is on the same level as getting into a car accident? Reproducing is on the same level as having to be put on dialysis for rhabdomyolysis and needing to get your arteries cauterised by a doctor? Is this a healthy attitude for the average person to hold?

You just compared it to falling off a tightrope, so... hello mister No-Room-To-Talk, I'm Calling-You-On-Your-Bullshit! Nice to meet you!

No I didn't. I compared having a safety net for performing dysfunctional actions to having a safety harness for walking on a tightrope, the harness makes people much more willing to walk down it. I agree with abortion in case of rape but that's certainly not the case the vast majority of the time, getting pregnant is usually (and hopefully) voluntary unlike a car accident where another dickhead slams into you and half-kills you. You don't usually die when you give birth either, although if that is the case I'd opt for abortion too. I'm very clearly talking about what attitude should be fostered among the general public regarding careless and voluntary actions.

The above post addresses this.

No, it does not. Your use of ‘mashing’ as a term reflects little more than your ignorance of the process and an attempt to say ‘abortion is icky’.

Most any medical procedure is. That is no excuse to ban ‘any medical procedure’.

I stand corrected, the foetuses are usually cremated and any mashing is purely collateral. Doesn't discredit the argument on attitudes to consequences though.

[Godular]

Firstly, abortion is not being free of the consequences. Having an abortion involves taking responsibility.

Taking responsibility at the last minute isn't a good thing.

If that were in any way the case, I'm sure that might even be remotely true.

Respecting the bodily sovereignty of born people would be a good place to start.

Bodily sovereignty to do what?

To not have their body used by another person without their consent. That'd be a great starting point.

There was no Peace of Westphalia for reproductive organs.

How remarkably irrelevant.

I'd rather not pay as much for people's truvada and diabetes meds if the people able to guide society can help it at all.

While a laudable sentiment, still remarkably irrelevant.

[The Free Joy State]

Firstly, abortion is not being free of the consequences. Having an abortion involves taking responsibility.

Taking responsibility at the last minute isn't a good thing.

Why is an abortion (which are often performed early in the pregnancy, as outlined) "taking responsibility at the last minute" but being trapped with an unplanned pregnancy that you are panicking wondering how to afford not?

Regards, most people (I'd imagine) here's time at high school and university.

And the relevance of this is?

Brazil is not a good place to live man, their society has the negatives of both the first and third world. Look at their homicide rate and tell me that is a society as functional as America. Are you suggesting Brazil should embrace the fact it needs that many abortions?

I am suggesting that it would need fewer abortions if it had better, more open sex education and contraception, and abortion was freely available as a last resort.

I can give, for comparison, the UK: teen conceptions have halved in 20 years, thanks to free contraception and mandatory sex education (and abortions are also available on the NHS)

Bodily sovereignty to do what? There was no Peace of Westphalia for reproductive organs. I'd rather not pay as much for people's truvada and diabetes meds if the people able to guide society can help it at all.

Bodily sovereignty is an absolute right.

It prevents people being raped, enslaved, given cruel or unusual punishment and -- yes -- it also covers reproductive rights (including that of contraception or abortion).

It's a shame you'd rather not pay for it. But, things you'd rather not aren't a matter of law.

[Grapasia]

Are you suggesting Brazil should embrace the fact it needs that many abortions?

I see that you completely missed the point that Free Joy was making.

Brazil does not have more abortions because it banned abortions. Brazil has more abortions for the same reason the ghetto has more abortions, it's not a good place to live. A certain world leader who I do not feel the need to name would go as far as to call it a shithole. Is encouraging the high time preference of the people living in Brazil that seems to be intertwined with so many of their problems by aborting the consequences of casual sex (which is causing STD rates to skyrocket, by the way) really a good idea? Their high murder rate is per capita so less of them won't fix that, same with their poverty and their corrupt vote-bribing faux-social democratic government.

[Godular]

If you prefer we can compare being pregnant to giving another person a 9-month livesaving bloodtransfusion.
And then note that you have the right to stop that transfusion at every time you desire, even though that kills the recipient.

Okay, this is epic.

You just compared it to falling off a tightrope, so... hello mister No-Room-To-Talk, I'm Calling-You-On-Your-Bullshit! Nice to meet you!

No I didn't.

Yes, in point of fact you did. While trying to yammer out your comments about how safety nets make people behave differently (which is irrelevant anyway), you essentially concurred with our position that getting pregnant without wanting to be is essentially an injury. Our position is that any such injury should be treated if the person wishes it to be treated.

I agree with abortion in case of rape but that's certainly not the case the vast majority of the time, getting pregnant is usually (and hopefully) voluntary unlike a car accident where another dickhead slams into you and half-kills you.

Yet you accept the risk of a car accident when you get behind the wheel of the car, thus it is every bit as voluntary as walking a tightrope. Acknowledging the risk does not mean that you should be precluded from getting treatment, however.

You don't usually die when you give birth either, although if that is the case I'd opt for abortion too. I'm very clearly talking about what attitude should be fostered among the general public regarding careless and voluntary actions.

Pregnancy is inherently life-threatening. There are any number of complications that can take a woman from zero to six-feet-under within the span of minutes and with no forewarning whatsoever. If the woman does not wish to undertake those very extant risks, who are you to gainsay her?

No, it does not. Your use of ‘mashing’ as a term reflects little more than your ignorance of the process and an attempt to say ‘abortion is icky’.Most any medical procedure is. That is no excuse to ban ‘any medical procedure’.

I stand corrected, the foetuses are usually cremated and any mashing is purely collateral.

This largely fails to address the actual point.

Doesn't discredit the argument on attitudes to consequences though.

Yes it does. It demonstrates your ignorance on the topic and testifies to your inability to form an otherwise cogent argument.

[The Free Joy State]

Godular, you might want to fix your quotes. You've made it look like you said those things.

[The New California Republic]

I see that you completely missed the point that Free Joy was making.

Brazil does not have more abortions because it banned abortions.

And Free Joy is also making the point that banning abortions is totally ineffective.

Is encouraging the high time preference of the people living in Brazil that seems to be intertwined with so many of their problems by aborting the consequences of casual sex (which is causing STD rates to skyrocket, by the way) really a good idea?

Again you seem to have missed the point that regardless of the ban on the procedure there are still millions of abortions performed there every year, so you are talking complete shite when you imply that the ability to have an abortion is somehow causally related to the incidences of casual sex.

Their high murder rate is per capita so less of them won't fix that, same with their poverty and their corrupt vote-bribing faux-social democratic government.

And then you just go on a really fucking weird rant here, so I won't even bother touching this; I'll just leave you with your ranting.