[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[Kernen]

That's really only because you sign something to that effect. Otherwise, its limited to emergency care.

Wrong. The military nonconsensually took people against their will under threat of imprisonment for medical experimentation - for decades.

Based on their gender.

Then they broke the law, if it was remotely recent. That doesn't mean that you have a right to make medical decisions for others, it just means they did so regardless of right. That, or they agreed to it.

[Godular]

Wrong. The military nonconsensually took people against their will under threat of imprisonment for medical experimentation - for decades.

Based on their gender.

Then they broke the law, if it was remotely recent. That doesn't mean that you have a right to make medical decisions for others, it just means they did so regardless of right. That, or they agreed to it.

'Extra Duties As Assigned' is a bullshit entry on a contract...

[Kernen]

Then they broke the law, if it was remotely recent. That doesn't mean that you have a right to make medical decisions for others, it just means they did so regardless of right. That, or they agreed to it.

'Extra Duties As Assigned' is a bullshit entry on a contract...

I don't believe that you can contract out of informed consent in the general way of things.

[Galloism]

Wrong. The military nonconsensually took people against their will under threat of imprisonment for medical experimentation - for decades.

Based on their gender.

Then they broke the law, if it was remotely recent. That doesn't mean that you have a right to make medical decisions for others, it just means they did so regardless of right. That, or they agreed to it.

I mean, they stopped doing it in 1973. But it was perfectly legal, and they still reserve the legal right to do it again.

The government still requires men to register for it in case they decide to reinstate it. Under pain of severe consequences.

[Kernen]

Then they broke the law, if it was remotely recent. That doesn't mean that you have a right to make medical decisions for others, it just means they did so regardless of right. That, or they agreed to it.

I mean, they stopped doing it in 1973. But it was perfectly legal, and they still reserve the legal right to do it again.

The government still requires men to register for it in case they decide to reinstate it. Under pain of severe consequences.

Fifty years ago is hardly recent. Lots and lots of changes since on the whole issue of medical consent. Registering for it is not the same thing as overriding the informed consent requirement.

[Katganistan]

In this case it is absolutely illogical. Outlawing abortion prevents women from having rights and access to a potentially life saving medical procedure. Outlawing abortion based entirely on moral feelings is violating the rights of others.

Women have more rights than men in America, men dont have a say in the abortion yet there is a gender equality in America right?

Really? Where is the woman's say in vasectomies? They don't have one. Know why?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T OWN MEN'S DICKS.

Now show the same fucking decency and stop acting like men own what's between a woman's legs.

Remember, men are the most oppressed people because their wives get to have control over their own bodies.

You claimed women are losing their rights, when women have more rights than men today. All it takes to destroy you is one girl you dont know accusing you of sexual harassment or rape that didnt even happen yet everyone will mindlessly agree with her because she is a woman and you are a man an inferior in the American caste system. The guy must endure being considered a sex offender for a crime he never commited and even when it found out he did nothing the social damage is done, his life will never be same again. The woman who lied gets nothing on the otherhand, this is power over men that women have in America yet pretend as though they are oppressed in anyway. A woman that back talks her man in Arabia gets punched out, a woman that back talks her man in America keeps her attitude going.

I'm sorry you regret not being able to punch women for telling you you're wrong, your arguments are ridiculous, and that you need to get over not owning them.

[Galloism]

I mean, they stopped doing it in 1973. But it was perfectly legal, and they still reserve the legal right to do it again.

The government still requires men to register for it in case they decide to reinstate it. Under pain of severe consequences.

Fifty years ago is hardly recent. Lots and lots of changes since on the whole issue of medical consent. Registering for it is not the same thing as overriding the informed consent requirement.

Fair, although without a contravening piece of legislation or a supreme court case, there would seem to be no bar to them doing it again, especially since basically no one in the intervening timeframe has recognized that doing so was in fact even wrong.

[Katganistan]

So basically women have no right to control the use of their bodies because it offends your morality.

No you misunderstand, Im showing him how his/her line of reasoning can easily be used against him/her to justify abortion which he/she isnt in favor of. Any sane human values children over adults in moral reasoning thats why they often use kids in political propaganda really tugs on the moral strings on people.

You conflate emotion with morality. Unsurprisingly.

[Galloism]

Women have more rights than men in America, men dont have a say in the abortion yet there is a gender equality in America right?

Really? Where is the woman's say in vasectomies? They don't have one. Know why?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T OWN MEN'S DICKS.

Now show the same fucking decency and stop acting like men own what's between a woman's legs.

Yes they do, in point of fact. They shouldn't, but they do.

Maybe its because your "gender equal" abortion relies entirely on the position of a man on whether or not a woman is allowed access to a medical procedure on her own body but have no such "equality" when it comes to male medical procedures.

Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

Citation needed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12257282

https://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/are ... vasectomy/

https://medicaljustice.com/spousal-cons ... vasectomy/

Some examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/co ... ermission/

https://www.bestvasectomy.com/want-a-va ... our-money/

Some example forms used by practices:

https://www.ironwoodfp.com/pdfs/Vasecto ... 20Form.pdf

https://www.healthbanks.com/PracticeCol ... Packet.pdf

http://www.vasectomymedical.com/webpage ... onsent.pdf

http://arizona-urology.com/wp-content/u ... Packet.pdf

Also, vasectomies aren't done through the dick. It's a procedure done on the vas deferens (hence the name 'vasectomy').

[Katganistan]

Fetuses are not human or self aware so people rationalize killing them because its the same as killing a jellyfish. We were once as simple mentally as them yet our moms decided to let us exist onwards.

And if your mother hadn't, not only would you not be presenting this ridiculous so-called argument, but you would neither have ever been aware of this argument, or aware of existing at all, and therefore would not care whether or not you had been aborted.

My thoughts on abortion legislation, boiled down to its simplest form:

1. The physical bodies of citizens are not government property
2. Every single person has a God given free will to decide what to do with their own bodies.

Amen.

[Nova Cyberia]

Really? Where is the woman's say in vasectomies? They don't have one. Know why?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T OWN MEN'S DICKS.

Now show the same fucking decency and stop acting like men own what's between a woman's legs.

Yes they do, in point of fact. They shouldn't, but they do.

Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12257282

https://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/are ... vasectomy/

https://medicaljustice.com/spousal-cons ... vasectomy/

Some examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/co ... ermission/

https://www.bestvasectomy.com/want-a-va ... our-money/

Some example forms used by practices:

https://www.ironwoodfp.com/pdfs/Vasecto ... 20Form.pdf

https://www.healthbanks.com/PracticeCol ... Packet.pdf

http://www.vasectomymedical.com/webpage ... onsent.pdf

http://arizona-urology.com/wp-content/u ... Packet.pdf

Also, vasectomies aren't done through the dick. It's a procedure done on the vas deferens (hence the name 'vasectomy').

That's just depressing, tbh.

[Kernen]

Fifty years ago is hardly recent. Lots and lots of changes since on the whole issue of medical consent. Registering for it is not the same thing as overriding the informed consent requirement.

Fair, although without a contravening piece of legislation or a supreme court case, there would seem to be no bar to them doing it again, especially since basically no one in the intervening timeframe has recognized that doing so was in fact even wrong.

Not really. As I understand it, several of the statutes protecting informed consent aren't specific to the civilian world. I suspect, even if its a gray area, that doing so would not comport with either common law professional liability or HIPPA.

[Katganistan]

The bulk of the job is being done by the woman’s body. One would think she should be the one having the final say in what goes on in her body. I wouldn’t presume to tell a man what he can or can’t do with his penis or his sperm. I would let him voice his opinion on the procedure but ultimately I should be, along with my health care provider, the arbiter of what to do with my reproductive rights.

Equality is when the man and woman both agree to the abortion not the woman agrees, and the man doesnt but the man is ignored instead or vice versa.

The man can have as many abortions as he wants when he is carrying the pregnancy.

[Galloism]

Fair, although without a contravening piece of legislation or a supreme court case, there would seem to be no bar to them doing it again, especially since basically no one in the intervening timeframe has recognized that doing so was in fact even wrong.

Not really. As I understand it, several of the statutes protecting informed consent aren't specific to the civilian world. I suspect, even if its a gray area, that doing so would not comport with either common law professional liability or HIPPA.

Please provide the portion of HIPAA that requires the military to get consent before performing medical experiments on their troops, and bars them from jailing or otherwise punishing those who refuse.

[Katganistan]

That's like I own a car but because you bought some petrol for me we should equally decide whether to sell the car.

This is equality of views not car ownership. Guys says yes for prolife, girls says no. Girl wins in the end because the abortion debate is not about gender equality its about women being more important than men.

Fine. Let me know when you're going to have the castration I demand you undergo. After all, then I can't get pregnant if you have sex with me.

I should be able to have a say in your genitals if you have one in mine.

[Galloism]

This is equality of views not car ownership. Guys says yes for prolife, girls says no. Girl wins in the end because the abortion debate is not about gender equality its about women being more important than men.

Fine. Let me know when you're going to have the castration I demand you undergo. After all, then I can't get pregnant if you have sex with me.

I should be able to have a say in your genitals if you have one in mine.

Technically you already do by common practice.

Not for castration, but if you were married to him, you could effectively veto him getting a vasectomy.

[Katganistan]

Real funny that men are somehow powerless in your fantasy world despite them passing dangerous laws legislating women's bodies.

If you wish to see the power an average girl has, go hit one in public and see what happens then compare it to hitting a random guy. Most likely people will react worse if you do it to a girl than a guy because there is no gender equality.

HOLY SHIT!!!! PEOPLE DON'T APPROVE OF ASSAULT!

GIven this is the second time you've brought up men punching women -- I think the last time was about women given 'attitude' -- you can stay very very far away from me.

Your misogyny is very telling. And frightening, frankly.

[Galloism]

If you wish to see the power an average girl has, go hit one in public and see what happens then compare it to hitting a random guy. Most likely people will react worse if you do it to a girl than a guy because there is no gender equality.

HOLY SHIT!!!! PEOPLE DON'T APPROVE OF ASSAULT!

GIven this is the second time you've brought up men punching women -- I think the last time was about women given 'attitude' -- you can stay very very far away from me.

Your misogyny is very telling. And frightening, frankly.

People don’t approve of assault by men.

The discrimination is real.

You are not recognizing there’s a major social difference in treatment here, of which you are the beneficiary. Careful Kat - your privilege is showing.

[Jakker]

Then they broke the law, if it was remotely recent. That doesn't mean that you have a right to make medical decisions for others, it just means they did so regardless of right. That, or they agreed to it.

I mean, they stopped doing it in 1973. But it was perfectly legal, and they still reserve the legal right to do it again.

The government still requires men to register for it in case they decide to reinstate it. Under pain of severe consequences.

This thread is not about the draft. Let's get back on the topic of abortion.

[Katganistan]

My debate will cease when you admit this is about women's rights not equality until then i will not stop. Nothing I posted is what I view on abortion I am confused why people misuse the term equality so much.

Give me your liver.
I need it to live.
Your opinion doesn't matter because I need it and it's in your body so if you refuse, I still get it.


Do you understand how insane your stupid argument is?

[Kernen]

Not really. As I understand it, several of the statutes protecting informed consent aren't specific to the civilian world. I suspect, even if its a gray area, that doing so would not comport with either common law professional liability or HIPPA.

Please provide the portion of HIPAA that requires the military to get consent before performing medical experiments on their troops, and bars them from jailing or otherwise punishing those who refuse.

I can do you even better. I can go ahead and provide extensive judicial opinion on the topic of medical research and experimentation.

Precedential value of the Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine, as ratified by the US. Abdullahi v. Pfizer, Inc., 562 F.3d 163, 183 (2d Cir. 2009).

Citations to the regulatory rules promulgated by DHHS empowered by HIPAA protecting informed consent and medical experimentation. 21 C.F.R. pts. 50 and 56; 45 C.F.R. pt. 46. See also Fuja v. Benefit Tr. Life Ins. Co., 18 F.3d 1405, 1410-11 (7th Cir. 1994). "Before such research may be performed the protocol must be approved by an Institutional Review Board and must be clearly explained to the plaintiff who is required to sign an informed consent. The informed consent includes advising the patient of the possible risks, any alternative treatments available and above all that the treatment is part of a research study."

You're welcome to look at the cited cases in both.

There are more, but I don't have access to the military court tool of LexisNexis. Even though it came up with several results when I included "AND military OR defense"

[Galloism]

Please provide the portion of HIPAA that requires the military to get consent before performing medical experiments on their troops, and bars them from jailing or otherwise punishing those who refuse.

I can do you even better. I can go ahead and provide extensive judicial opinion on the topic of medical research and experimentation.

Precedential value of the Convention on Human Rights and Biomedicine, as ratified by the US. Abdullahi v. Pfizer, Inc., 562 F.3d 163, 183 (2d Cir. 2009).

Citations to the regulatory rules promulgated by DHHS empowered by HIPAA protecting informed consent and medical experimentation. 21 C.F.R. pts. 50 and 56; 45 C.F.R. pt. 46. See also Fuja v. Benefit Tr. Life Ins. Co., 18 F.3d 1405, 1410-11 (7th Cir. 1994). "Before such research may be performed the protocol must be approved by an Institutional Review Board and must be clearly explained to the plaintiff who is required to sign an informed consent. The informed consent includes advising the patient of the possible risks, any alternative treatments available and above all that the treatment is part of a research study."

You're welcome to look at the cited cases in both.

There are more, but I don't have access to the military court tool of LexisNexis. Even though it came up with several results when I included "AND military OR defense"

I will review your sources.

Sadly I cannot continue, as the ruling has been made that when claims are made saying only women should be given bodily autonomy and everything is perfect for men on the front of bodily autonomy, a rebuttal that men suffer the same lack of bodily autonomy is apparently not on topic. I will telegram you in a bit.

[Katganistan]

Unless the rape victim commits suicide they are hypocrite if they seek abortion.

Jesus Christ, are you serious?

Its not a person. If a rape victim doesnt want the child why should they be forced to have it?

If a fetus is a person why dont we give pregnant women two votes in an election? Or count fetus in the census?

If all girls killed their rape babies none of us would exist right now.

So you are the product of rape? Because I am not.

Where do you get that leap of logic?

Plus your not the one whose pregnant. If you have no uterus you get no opinion.

Plus you dodged my other question

The leap in logic is that rape is why any of us exist right now. I know you have your idealistic views on mankind but rape was the natural form of reproduction since the Paleolithic era meaning none of us would exist without rape and if babies spawned by rape were killed again none of us would exist. So why should a baby produced by rape be killed if you wont agree to not killing yourself?

That argument is pure bullshit, and insane.

do know what the definition of rape is?

Rape is non consensual sex.

Indeed and for the longest time human men didnt once give a damn about women consenting to sex they just raped them anytime they wanted, and that rape is what eventually lead to us existing. So if you support killing rape babies you support ending the current human race that are already rape babies.

Are you arguing that you support raping women?
I mean you already bemoaned the fact that in Saudi Arabia you're allowed to punch women in the face for having 'attitude', which you can't do here....

The picture you are painting about your attitudes towards how to treat women are frightening.

[Status Operarios]

Katganistan you may not be a direct product of rape but nevertheless I assure you that you are indeed a product of rapes. I have the audacity to say thousands of rapes. We have existed on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years and have only had a collective modern moral compass for two to three thousand years at the most liberal usage of moral compass. You sure you aren't a product of rape?

[Katganistan]

Katganistan you may not be a direct product of rape but nevertheless I assure you that you are indeed a product of rapes. I have the audacity to say thousands of rapes. We have existed on this planet for hundreds of thousands of years and have only had a collective modern moral compass for two to three thousand years at the most liberal usage of moral compass. You sure you aren't a product of rape?

Yup.