[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[Galloism]

Well that’s just fucking shitty.

Yeppers.

[Highever]

Maybe its because your "gender equal" abortion relies entirely on the position of a man on whether or not a woman is allowed access to a medical procedure on her own body but have no such "equality" when it comes to male medical procedures.

Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

Holy shit, fuck that.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Maybe its because your "gender equal" abortion relies entirely on the position of a man on whether or not a woman is allowed access to a medical procedure on her own body but have no such "equality" when it comes to male medical procedures.

Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

Just for my own curiosity I looked up what goes on in Sweden... and to get a vasectomy you need to be:
1. 25 years old
2. Discussed the procedure with your GP
3. Been fully informed and having consented.
Appears to me that there's none of this bs about spousal consent.

[Galloism]

Um, in most parts of the country a man can’t get a vasectomy without his wife or girlfriend’s permission.

It’s not the law per se, but doctors fear lawsuits.

That is actually a (very sad sad) version of equality.

Just for my own curiosity I looked up what goes on in Sweden... and to get a vasectomy you need to be:
1: 25 years old
2: Discussed the procedure with your GP and been fully informed and having consented.
Appears to me that there's none of this bs about spousal consent.

Sounds similar to the laws here, although in most states it’s 21 and sound mind. Fully informed is a function of medical ethics.

But even though it’s not the law, doctors fear lawsuits from aggrieved spouses, and most will not perform the procedure without spousal consent.

[Estanglia]

Fetuses are not human or self aware so people rationalize killing them because its the same as killing a jellyfish. We were once as simple mentally as them yet our moms decided to let us exist onwards.

Ah, the good old "What if you were aborted!" argument.

If my mother decided to abort me, I wouldn't care because I wouldn't, at the time of the abortion, be capable of caring.

Fetuses are not human or self aware so people rationalize killing them because its the same as killing a jellyfish. We were once as simple mentally as them yet our moms decided to let us exist onwards.

I agree. What if the fetus was you? What if you don't exist right now because you were aborted?

I still wouldn't support the banning of abortion (ignoring the fact that I would be incapable of doing so). I'm not gonna restrict someone's rights because their use of their rights harms me either directly or indirectly.

[Cappuccina]

Fetuses are not human or self aware so people rationalize killing them because its the same as killing a jellyfish. We were once as simple mentally as them yet our moms decided to let us exist onwards.

Ah, the good old "What if you were aborted!" argument.

If my mother decided to abort me, I wouldn't care because I wouldn't, at the time of the abortion, be capable of caring.

I agree. What if the fetus was you? What if you don't exist right now because you were aborted?

I still wouldn't support the banning of abortion (ignoring the fact that I would be incapable of doing so). I'm not gonna restrict someone's rights because their use of their rights harms me either directly or indirectly.

That's very illogical. You'd allow behavior that harms society? Why?

[Estanglia]

Ah, the good old "What if you were aborted!" argument.

If my mother decided to abort me, I wouldn't care because I wouldn't, at the time of the abortion, be capable of caring.



I still wouldn't support the banning of abortion (ignoring the fact that I would be incapable of doing so). I'm not gonna restrict someone's rights because their use of their rights harms me either directly or indirectly.

That's very illogical. You'd allow behavior that harms society? Why?

My intention with that part was that, if someone uses their rights in a way that harms me (say, self-defence), I wouldn't go ahead and demand that they have no right to do that unless it's actual harm/an abuse of my own rights (say they falsely claim self-defence).

Whether or not someone should have a particular right is a separate question. Personally appealing to me by making me a victim of someone's legitimate use of their rights isn't gonna work.

It depends on the harm to society, to answer your question. If it's society destroying behaviour, sure, stop it, but I don't think that the society should always trump the individual.

[Godular]

Ah, the good old "What if you were aborted!" argument.

If my mother decided to abort me, I wouldn't care because I wouldn't, at the time of the abortion, be capable of caring.



I still wouldn't support the banning of abortion (ignoring the fact that I would be incapable of doing so). I'm not gonna restrict someone's rights because their use of their rights harms me either directly or indirectly.

That's very illogical. You'd allow behavior that harms society? Why?

Prove that abortion access harms society.

[San Lumen]

Ah, the good old "What if you were aborted!" argument.

If my mother decided to abort me, I wouldn't care because I wouldn't, at the time of the abortion, be capable of caring.



I still wouldn't support the banning of abortion (ignoring the fact that I would be incapable of doing so). I'm not gonna restrict someone's rights because their use of their rights harms me either directly or indirectly.

That's very illogical. You'd allow behavior that harms society? Why?

How does it harm society? Who are you to medical decisions for someone else?

[Cappuccina]

That's very illogical. You'd allow behavior that harms society? Why?

How does it harm society? Who are you to medical decisions for someone else?

I wasn't referring to abortion there necessarily, just the notion of "I don't care if something harms me or the community, just let people do whatever".

[Godular]

How does it harm society? Who are you to medical decisions for someone else?

I wasn't referring to abortion there necessarily, just the notion of "I don't care if something harms me or the community, just let people do whatever".

I'm thinking they were speaking specifically of hypothetical scenarios. Primarily: 'Just because allowing abortion means that my parents COULD have aborted ME doesn't mean I should automagically give up my pro-choice stance'.

[Cappuccina]

I wasn't referring to abortion there necessarily, just the notion of "I don't care if something harms me or the community, just let people do whatever".

I'm thinking they were speaking specifically of hypothetical scenarios. Primarily: 'Just because allowing abortion means that my parents COULD have aborted ME doesn't mean I should automagically give up my pro-choice stance'.

I suppose, I'm not a fan of those sort of retroactive arguments either, tbh.

Also, "automagically". I'm gonna use that.

[Godular]

I'm thinking they were speaking specifically of hypothetical scenarios. Primarily: 'Just because allowing abortion means that my parents COULD have aborted ME doesn't mean I should automagically give up my pro-choice stance'.

I suppose, I'm not a fan of those sort of retroactive arguments either, tbh.

Also, "automagically". I'm gonna use that.

I like to reply to those kind of arguments with the 'life is 100% fatal ANYWAY, so why quibble?' argument.

Also: wish I could say I came up with it. Credit goes to the raidleader of a guild in WoW I ran with. I'm fairly certain he killed Qadhafi.

[Galloism]

I suppose, I'm not a fan of those sort of retroactive arguments either, tbh.

Also, "automagically". I'm gonna use that.

I like to reply to those kind of arguments with the 'life is 100% fatal ANYWAY, so why quibble?' argument.

Also: wish I could say I came up with it. Credit goes to the raidleader of a guild in WoW I ran with. I'm fairly certain he killed Qadhafi.

That predates him, and WoW, by a fair number of years.

[Godular]

I like to reply to those kind of arguments with the 'life is 100% fatal ANYWAY, so why quibble?' argument.

Also: wish I could say I came up with it. Credit goes to the raidleader of a guild in WoW I ran with. I'm fairly certain he killed Qadhafi.

That predates him, and WoW, by a fair number of years.

The word 'automagically', or the assassination?

[Galloism]

That predates him, and WoW, by a fair number of years.

The word 'automagically', or the assassination?

The word.

[Runtopia]

Regardless, so what you're saying is that it is case by case and that a woman should have a choice in the matter on ether or not she decides to abort or keep the result of a rape?

What I'm trying to say is if you think abortion is justified because of the psychological effects of having a child, think of the psychological effects of having an abortion as well.

Meanwhile, this longitudinal study found that "The predicted probability of reporting that abortion was the right decision was over 99% at all time points over three years." (i.e. most women who had an abortion believe they did the right thing).

Predicted probability can be way off.

Why should she have been forced to go through that trauma and potential bodily harm?

Did you not read my previous post?

Should I have the right to make medical decisions for you since you don’t believe in body autonomy?

If it is a medical issue, more often than not, the problem isn't with the fetus directly. You have a right to fix the problem, it might kill the fetus in the process, but it isn't intentionally attacking it.

So are you saying that women are too stupid to take this into account when making decisions about their own bodies ?

No, I never said anything close to that. All I said is that there would be trauma with or without an abortion, in a scenario like rape.

[Godular]

The word 'automagically', or the assassination?

The word.

Either way, the previously mentioned person is who I learned it from.

[Luna Amore]

The word 'automagically', or the assassination?

The word.

The '47 Projectomagic and the '58 Fords were indeed some kind of magic.

[The Free Joy State]

Regardless, so what you're saying is that it is case by case and that a woman should have a choice in the matter on ether or not she decides to abort or keep the result of a rape?

What I'm trying to say is if you think abortion is justified because of the psychological effects of having a child, think of the psychological effects of having an abortion as well.

The BMJ, the article that you clipped when quoting me below, shows there are no increased risks of having an abortion. Here's that quote again:

I bring the BMJ to argue against your pro-life site.

A study of women who were either turned away for an abortion due to advanced gestational age or received one found: "Women who received an abortion were at no higher risk of PTSD than women denied an abortion." (i.e. having an abortion puts women at no increased risk of trauma)

Meanwhile, this longitudinal study found that "The predicted probability of reporting that abortion was the right decision was over 99% at all time points over three years." (i.e. most women who had an abortion believe they did the right thing).

Predicted probability can be way off.

It was a three-year longitudinal study. It followed those women for three years, and found that the majority (99%) believed that they did the right thing. From that, they could predict that 99% of women would feel the same.

That ties in with this research that found that over 95% of women who have had an abortion do not regret having an abortion.

So are you saying that women are too stupid to take this into account when making decisions about their own bodies ?

No, I never said anything close to that. All I said is that there would be trauma with or without an abortion, in a scenario like rape.

Actually you argued that having an abortion could worsen the trauma:

Yes, there would be trauma for any woman who gave birth as a result of rape. Especially an 11-year-old, but there has also been studies (I'll link it) to show that there could possibly be more trauma to women who aborted after rape than those who bear the child. The mindset now would be "I was raped, then I killed a child" vs. "I was raped and gave birth as a result."

But the research cited from the BMJ (cited above) shows that not to be the case.

Meaning that there is no reason to deny a woman her bodily autonony in this. She is not in need of protecting from a bad decision that she will regret (the preponderance of evidence suggests the opposite is the case), and we do not take medical autonomy away from competent adults (and choosing whether to have an abortion or not is a medical decision -- between the woman and her own doctor).

EDIT: And, incidentally, forcing an eleven-year-old child -- as per your quote -- to give birth isn't just traumatic, it risks her life.

[Galloism]

and we do not take medical autonomy away from competent adults

Actually we do this uncomfortably regularly.

We shouldn’t, but we actually do - in point of fact.

[The Grims]

I like to reply to those kind of arguments with the 'life is 100% fatal ANYWAY, so why quibble?' argument.

Also: wish I could say I came up with it. Credit goes to the raidleader of a guild in WoW I ran with. I'm fairly certain he killed Qadhafi.

That predates him, and WoW, by a fair number of years.

His guildleader could have been alive in the 40s

[The Grims]

What I'm trying to say is if you think abortion is justified because of the psychological effects of having a child, think of the psychological effects of having an abortion as well.

The BMJ, the article that you clipped when quoting me below, shows there are no increased risks of having an abortion. Here's that quote again:

I bring the BMJ to argue against your pro-life site.

A study of women who were either turned away for an abortion due to advanced gestational age or received one found: "Women who received an abortion were at no higher risk of PTSD than women denied an abortion." (i.e. having an abortion puts women at no increased risk of trauma)

Predicted probability can be way off.

It was a three-year longitudinal study. It followed those women for three years, and found that the majority (99%) believed that they did the right thing. From that, they could predict that 99% of women would feel the same.

That ties in with this research that found that over 95% of women who have had an abortion do not regret having an abortion.

No, I never said anything close to that. All I said is that there would be trauma with or without an abortion, in a scenario like rape.

Actually you argued that having an abortion could worsen the trauma:

Yes, there would be trauma for any woman who gave birth as a result of rape. Especially an 11-year-old, but there has also been studies (I'll link it) to show that there could possibly be more trauma to women who aborted after rape than those who bear the child. The mindset now would be "I was raped, then I killed a child" vs. "I was raped and gave birth as a result."

But the research cited from the BMJ (cited above) shows that not to be the case.

Meaning that there is no reason to deny a woman her bodily autonony in this. She is not in need of protecting from a bad decision that she will regret (the preponderance of evidence suggests the opposite is the case), and we do not take medical autonomy away from competent adults (and choosing whether to have an abortion or not is a medical decision -- between the woman and her own doctor).

EDIT: And, incidentally, forcing an eleven-year-old child -- as per your quote -- to give birth isn't just traumatic, it risks her life.

It all seems a moot point anyway. "You.may regret this later" is not a reason to ban people from.doing something.

[The Free Joy State]

The BMJ, the article that you clipped when quoting me below, shows there are no increased risks of having an abortion. Here's that quote again:



It was a three-year longitudinal study. It followed those women for three years, and found that the majority (99%) believed that they did the right thing. From that, they could predict that 99% of women would feel the same.

That ties in with this research that found that over 95% of women who have had an abortion do not regret having an abortion.

Actually you argued that having an abortion could worsen the trauma:

But the research cited from the BMJ (cited above) shows that not to be the case.

Meaning that there is no reason to deny a woman her bodily autonony in this. She is not in need of protecting from a bad decision that she will regret (the preponderance of evidence suggests the opposite is the case), and we do not take medical autonomy away from competent adults (and choosing whether to have an abortion or not is a medical decision -- between the woman and her own doctor).

EDIT: And, incidentally, forcing an eleven-year-old child -- as per your quote -- to give birth isn't just traumatic, it risks her life.

It all seems a moot point anyway. "You.may regret this later" is not a reason to ban people from.doing something.

Very true.

"If you accept that donor kidney, you may have complications later" is no reason to ban people from accepting a freely offered donor kidney.
"If you have that sterilisation procedure, you may later wish you hadn't had it done" is no reason to force people to not have that procedure.

That said, it's still worth pointing out the factual inaccuracy of that argument, though.

[Page]

What I'm trying to say is if you think abortion is justified because of the psychological effects of having a child, think of the psychological effects of having an abortion as well.

Some people are profoundly psychologically affected by abortion, but many are not. You can find lots of people who have had an abortion who aren't troubled by it, who don't experience any guilt or doubt and are relieved to have it done.