[Abortion Thread] (YET ANOTHER POLL!) Taking measure.

[Neutraligon]

Except there is equality in that both men and women get to make their own medical decisions and get to decide what to do with their own bodies.

Yet under equality it doesnt matter what women think or what men think only what they both think and agree with at the same time therefore there is no equality it is an issue of women's rights. If men say we want cupcakes and girls say we want ice cream nothing happens until one of them agrees with the other's idea because thats actual equality. Under our system what the girl says happens because they are more important socially.

Except you are giving more rights to the man by allowing him to dictate what happens to the woman's body.

[Akrisen]

In abortion the answer to that is no as mom deciding to kill the embryo is more important than daddy wanting to keep it.

Appeals to emotion 101. This is an issue of a person having a right to make medical decisions over their bodies.

Then its not equality is that so hard to admit already?

[Neutraligon]

Appeals to emotion 101. This is an issue of a person having a right to make medical decisions over their bodies.

Then its not equality is that so hard to admit already?

Because you are factually wrong, it is equality. What you are attempting to argue is actually inequality.

[Highever]

Appeals to emotion 101. This is an issue of a person having a right to make medical decisions over their bodies.

Then its not equality is that so hard to admit already?

So then a man needs the consent of a woman to get a vasectomy?

[Akrisen]

Yet under equality it doesnt matter what women think or what men think only what they both think and agree with at the same time therefore there is no equality it is an issue of women's rights. If men say we want cupcakes and girls say we want ice cream nothing happens until one of them agrees with the other's idea because thats actual equality. Under our system what the girl says happens because they are more important socially.

Except you are giving more rights to the man by allowing him to dictate what happens to the woman's body.

The man alone has no say only when both genders agree does anything happen under actual equality.

[Neutraligon]

Then its not equality is that so hard to admit already?

So then a man needs the consent of a woman to get a vasectomy?

Not just that, since a man is being allowed to make medical decisions for a woman, he can also be forced to have a vasectomy.

[Akrisen]

Then its not equality is that so hard to admit already?

So then a man needs the consent of a woman to get a vasectomy?

Sperm are not the same as embryos and dont require a woman's existence. This is like saying should a woman ask a man if its ok for her eggs to be freezed. The baby was created by both genders so under equality only both genders can decide what happens to it.

[Neutraligon]

Except you are giving more rights to the man by allowing him to dictate what happens to the woman's body.

The man alone has no say only when both genders agree does anything happen under actual equality.

The very nature of pregnancy means that if there is no agreement the man is controlling the woman' body, controlling her medical decisions.

[The Free Joy State]

Appeals to emotion 101. This is an issue of a person having a right to make medical decisions over their bodies.

Then its not equality is that so hard to admit already?

It is equality.

Men have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women cannot tell their partners to get a vasectomy/not get a vasectomy.

Men cannot tell their partners to get an abortion/not get an abortion.

No-one can force another party into doing something with their body that they do not want (have sex, have a procedure, etc).

That is equality.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Aaaaaaaaaand again, if you’re all tore up about a woman having unilateral authority to terminate the pregnancy that she is personally carrying, might I suggest you think up and advocate for an analogous option for men... mayhap a legal form of ceding any relevant child-rearing responsibilities.

That seems far more realistic... and equal.

Do realise any advantage you give to women you must give to men under a gender equal system.

Why yes, I do. That is why I presented the option above.

If men cant child rear women cant child rear simple as that.

But men can rear a child if they wish to do so. There are plenty of kids already up for adoption if one gets that burning urge but does not wish to go the ‘natural’ route.

If a woman can unilaterally end a pregnancy, a man should have a similar means of ceding involvement in the relationship. That is equal, and noninvasive.

[Highever]

So then a man needs the consent of a woman to get a vasectomy?

Sperm are not the same as embryos and dont require a woman's existence. This is like saying should a woman ask a man if its ok for her eggs to be freezed. The baby was created by both genders so under equality only both genders can decide what happens to it.

This is about a medical procedure affecting an individuals bodies. So men can do whatever they wish on their own but women must have permission from men.

[Akrisen]

Then its not equality is that so hard to admit already?

It is equality.

Men have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women cannot tell their partners to get a vasectomy/not get a vasectomy.

Men cannot tell their partners to get an abortion/not get an abortion.

No-one can force another partner into doing something with their body that they do not want (have sex, have a procedure, etc).

That is equality.

A boy and a girl both make a sandcastle yet only the girl can decide the end of the sandcastle if Im going by your unequal logic. Under equality they both agree to when its destroyed or left alone. Why is this hard to understand?

[Akrisen]

Sperm are not the same as embryos and dont require a woman's existence. This is like saying should a woman ask a man if its ok for her eggs to be freezed. The baby was created by both genders so under equality only both genders can decide what happens to it.

This is about a medical procedure affecting an individuals bodies. So men can do whatever they wish on their own but women must have permission from men.

Just say this is not about equality only women's rights then. The woman's body doesnt matter the abortion is the embryo not the woman.

[Neutraligon]

It is equality.

Men have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women cannot tell their partners to get a vasectomy/not get a vasectomy.

Men cannot tell their partners to get an abortion/not get an abortion.

No-one can force another partner into doing something with their body that they do not want (have sex, have a procedure, etc).

That is equality.

A boy and a girl both make a sandcastle yet only the girl can decide the end of the sandcastle if Im going by your unequal logic. Under equality they both agree to when its destroyed or left alone. Why is this hard to understand?

Except one thing, the sand castle is not a part of her body. Your comparison is no where near anything similar to pregnancy. Now if the sand castle where instead covering her body (ie she was a part of the sand castle) then you might have something more equivalent.

[Highever]

This is about a medical procedure affecting an individuals bodies. So men can do whatever they wish on their own but women must have permission from men.

Just say this is not about equality only women's rights then. The woman's body doesnt matter the abortion is the embryo not the woman.

The womans body doesnt matter.....
The body is what the embryo is in
The woman owns that body
The woman is the one that must carry the embryo
The pregnancy only directly affects the womans body
....but the womans body doesnt matter.

[Neutraligon]

This is about a medical procedure affecting an individuals bodies. So men can do whatever they wish on their own but women must have permission from men.

Just say this is not about equality only women's rights then. The woman's body doesnt matter the abortion is the embryo not the woman.

Until 24 weeks the embryo is essentially part of the mothers body, and during the pregnancy it resides within her body.

[Akrisen]

A boy and a girl both make a sandcastle yet only the girl can decide the end of the sandcastle if Im going by your unequal logic. Under equality they both agree to when its destroyed or left alone. Why is this hard to understand?

Except one thing, the sand castle is not a part of her body. Your comparison is no where near anything similar to pregnancy. Now if the sand castle where instead covering her body (ie she was a part of the sand castle) then you might have something more equivalent.

The sand castle is the creation of both the man and woman like an embryo so the metaphor works. Again the woman's body doesnt matter the abortion is about the embryo not the woman.

[The Free Joy State]

It is equality.

Men have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women cannot tell their partners to get a vasectomy/not get a vasectomy.

Men cannot tell their partners to get an abortion/not get an abortion.

No-one can force another partner into doing something with their body that they do not want (have sex, have a procedure, etc).

That is equality.

A boy and a girl both make a sandcastle yet only the girl can decide the end of the sandcastle if Im going by your unequal logic. Under equality they both agree to when its destroyed or left alone. Why is this hard to understand?

The sandcastle is an external thing, unattached to anything.

The woman's body is hers' -- legally, medically and physically.

You cannot compare two infants on the beach playing with sandcastles and a person's right to their body autonomy.

Now, about me denying you life-saving surgery? Can I do it?

After all, that is the right you want men to have -- the right to interfere with women's medical autonomy and prevent them having life-saving medical care on a whim.

[Akrisen]

Just say this is not about equality only women's rights then. The woman's body doesnt matter the abortion is the embryo not the woman.

The womans body doesnt matter.....
The body is what the embryo is in
The woman owns that body
The woman is the one that must carry the embryo
The pregnancy only directly affects the womans body
....but the womans body doesnt matter.

The embryo is the construct of the man and woman so under gender equality only mom and dad agreeing can abort it. My head hurts how you cannot simply grasp this.

[Neutraligon]

Except one thing, the sand castle is not a part of her body. Your comparison is no where near anything similar to pregnancy. Now if the sand castle where instead covering her body (ie she was a part of the sand castle) then you might have something more equivalent.

The sand castle is the creation of both the man and woman like an embryo so the metaphor works. Again the woman's body doesnt matter the abortion is about the embryo not the woman.

Except it doesn't for one simple reason, the sand castle imposes nothing on either of the two who made it, unlike the pregnancy. The pregnancy imposes on one person and one person alone, the girl. The abortion is about the woman since the pregnancy is imposing on her body, and as such she gets to make medical decisions for herself. The embryo is essentially a part of the woman's body until viability. Although...there are men who could have abortions, namely ftm trans individuals.

[Beggnig]

Then its not equality is that so hard to admit already?

It is equality.

Men have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women cannot tell their partners to get a vasectomy/not get a vasectomy.

Men cannot tell their partners to get an abortion/not get an abortion.

No-one can force another party into doing something with their body that they do not want (have sex, have a procedure, etc).

That is equality.

Yeah, because if you've got a body inside you with its own heartbeat, that's totally your body.
Your decision to do something with your body was having sex.
Rape's not legal, nobody is legally forced to reproduce.

[Akrisen]

The sand castle is the creation of both the man and woman like an embryo so the metaphor works. Again the woman's body doesnt matter the abortion is about the embryo not the woman.

Except it doesn't for one simple reason, the sand castle imposes nothing on either of the two who made it, unlike the pregnancy. The pregnancy imposes on one person and one person alone, the girl. The abortion is about the woman since the pregnancy is imposing on her body, and as such she gets to make medical decisions for herself. The embryo is essentially a part of the woman's body until viability.

Man you say this is equality then go woman this woman that making it clear only the woman's view matters so just say its a women's rights issue not an equality issue. The medical procedure thing is stupid any woman could have their tubes tied like like any guy can have a vasectomy, simply equalizing abortion doesnt restrict women from medical procedures in anyway. Besides you are acting like the guy wont agree with the mom anyway.

[The Free Joy State]

It is equality.

Men have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women have the right to make decisions over their own bodies.

Women cannot tell their partners to get a vasectomy/not get a vasectomy.

Men cannot tell their partners to get an abortion/not get an abortion.

No-one can force another party into doing something with their body that they do not want (have sex, have a procedure, etc).

That is equality.

1. Yeah, because if you've got a body inside you with its own heartbeat, that's totally your body.
2. Your decision to do something with your body was having sex.
3. Rape's not legal, nobody is legally forced to reproduce.

1. A heartbeat does not mean viability. The foetus is attached to the mother, using her blood and her organs. The mother can be made ill by pregnancy, even die as a result of being pregnant, of childbirth.

The woman has a right to regain her bodily autonomy. If someone is raping you, you have the right to make them stop. If someone comes into your home and refuses to leave, you have the right to evict them with minimum physical force necessary. Unfortunately, abortion is the minimum physical force necessary for speedy eviction of a foetus.

2. Consent to sex =/= Consent to Pregnancy

3. Rape may not be legal, but it does happen. Pregnancies happen as a result of rape, and no woman should be forced to bear a rapist's foetus.

[San Lumen]

why should a rape victim have to carry a child to term they dont want? Their have been several cases in recent years including a 11 year old girl in Paraguay i believe forced to carry a child to term because the law there being identical to that of Alabama. There could be serious mental and bodily trauma from a pregnancy so young. But the fetus matters more right?

Do you have a source, before I continue with my argument?

https://gantdaily.com/2015/08/14/11-yea ... -paraguay/

[Highever]

The womans body doesnt matter.....
The body is what the embryo is in
The woman owns that body
The woman is the one that must carry the embryo
The pregnancy only directly affects the womans body
....but the womans body doesnt matter.

The embryo is the construct of the man and woman so under gender equality only mom and dad agreeing can abort it. My head hurts how you cannot simply grasp this.

I cannot simply grasp why you do not understand medical and bodily autonomy.