Abortions and Disability-Free Societies

[Godular]

So long as the person does not wish to take the risks, it is neither your business nor right to decide for another person how their body is used or what 'risks' they should undertake. You're right, this isn't the 1800s. This is an era that is a great deal more enlightened and egalitarian than those times were, and I'd like to think that we've graduated beyond that degree of autocracy.

Restrictions and limits on personal autonomy are necessary for civilization, however, and unchecked individualism across the board without boundaries or exceptions is a recipe for disaster.

Seems we're doing just fine with what 'boundaries' we've got in place. I don't have the right to shoot you unless you present a recognizable and immediate threat to myself, whereupon I have the right to rectify that threat with whatever means exist at my disposal. Whether you like it or not, pregnancy is a very immediate and recognizable threat, and if the woman does not wish to tolerate that threat she should not be forced to do so anyway.

[Ethel mermania]

Why not? It's not up to me or any other citizen if the state should exterminate the Jews. Jews being people isn't a logical and scientific reason why the state should not exterminate the jews. They will have to be the one's dealing with their evil, not anyone else.

If you don't like the extermination of the jews, don't kill them. Simple.

We are talking about fetus, not people that have been born. And no, just because your religion compares abortion to genocide does not make it reality.

That’s a really sad and pathetic straw man there.

It's an excellent example. If you believe aborti9n is murder you have an obligation to stop it.

[Olthar]

Why is everyone hopping onto this "eugenics" point? That likely has nothing to do with it. Raising a disabled child is hard. It takes an incredible amount of time, effort, and money, and for children with mental disabilities, this is likely a lifelong commitment. You're not having a child; you're having a responsibility. If it's acceptable to get an abortion because the woman cannot support the child, financially or otherwise, then this should be just as acceptable. Not everyone wants to or can play the roll of mother for 60+ years. That's a serious emotional investment that not many people are strong enough to give. This is not a case of, "Ew, disabled kid. Do not want." It's more a case of, "I know I am not capable of raising this child and do not wish to fail them by trying."

[Firaxin]

Why not? It's not up to me or any other citizen if the state should exterminate the Jews. Jews being people isn't a logical and scientific reason why the state should not exterminate the jews. They will have to be the one's dealing with their evil, not anyone else.

If you don't like the extermination of the jews, don't kill them. Simple.

We are talking about fetus, not people that have been born. And no, just because your religion compares abortion to genocide does not make it reality.

That’s a really said and pathetic straw man there.

It wasn't a strawman, I was simply pointing out the absurdity of what you said if it were about people. I view abortion as murder, so it isn’t as simple as just not participating.

[Kernen]

Is it okay to abort fetuses if they will have mental or physical disabilities?


No, that should not be a factor at all into why someone should or should not get an abortion.

They can't afford the child or they will die while giving childbirth are the only factors.

Enforce that. Its not like you can govern why somebody chooses to exercise their right if its a right.

My wife and I are in full agreement that we will abort any fetus that is abnormal. We aren't interested in raising a defective child.

[The Greater Low Countries]

Hmm... a lot of different opinions, but that's okay, this is NSG, where you meet people all over the political spectrum!
I want to make it very clear that I only used the word "fetus" in the OP because I needed to be scientific and unbiased. In my honest opinion, the word "fetus" is an awful word that is used to dehumanize the ones yet unborn.
However, I want to make it very clear that my abortion views will not rig the poll, but the poll will not change my views on abortion. Honesty must be preserved.

My wife and I are in full agreement that we will abort any fetus that is abnormal. We aren't interested in raising a defective child.

I don't usually reply to comments, but gee whiz man, that is hurtful. "Defective"? I know quite a few people with neuromuscular conditions, autism (which btw can manifest itself in such a way that you couldn't even call it a disorder), and other such things. They are wonderful people and just because they can't do some things doesn't make them "defective". Would you change your mind if your kid got depressed when he was 13?
It makes me really sad that you think this

[Godular]

Hmm... a lot of different opinions, but that's okay, this is NSG, where you meet people all over the political spectrum!
I want to make it very clear that I only used the word "fetus" in the OP because I needed to be scientific and unbiased. In my honest opinion, the word "fetus" is an awful word that is used to dehumanize the ones yet unborn.
However, I want to make it very clear that my abortion views will not rig the poll, but the poll will not change my views on abortion. Honesty must be preserved.

My wife and I are in full agreement that we will abort any fetus that is abnormal. We aren't interested in raising a defective child.

I don't usually reply to comments, but gee whiz man, that is hurtful. "Defective"? I know quite a few people with neuromuscular conditions, autism (which btw can manifest itself in such a way that you couldn't even call it a disorder), and other such things. They are wonderful people and just because they can't do some things doesn't make them "defective". Would you change your mind if your kid got depressed when he was 13?
It makes me really sad that you think this

It's kinda difficult to spot depression in the womb though. How would one even identify it? The same would go for autism.

If the abnormality can be spotted while the fetus is still in the womb, it would have to be something physical or genetic. How would you justify forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term if it was... say... trisomy 13?

[Olthar]

I want to make it very clear that I only used the word "fetus" in the OP because I needed to be scientific and unbiased. In my honest opinion, the word "fetus" is an awful word that is used to dehumanize the ones yet unborn.

*Gasp!*
We're dehumanizing something that isn't human? How awful! How terrible! We truly are monsters!

[Grinning Dragon]

Is it okay to abort fetuses if they will have mental or physical disabilities?


No, that should not be a factor at all into why someone should or should not get an abortion.

They can't afford the child or they will die while giving childbirth are the only factors.

Enforce that. Its not like you can govern why somebody chooses to exercise their right if its a right.

My wife and I are in full agreement that we will abort any fetus that is abnormal. We aren't interested in raising a defective child.

My ol lady and I were of the same agreement way back when, when we decided to bring some lil snot slingers into the world.

[Kernen]

My wife and I are in full agreement that we will abort any fetus that is abnormal. We aren't interested in raising a defective child.

I don't usually reply to comments, but gee whiz man, that is hurtful. "Defective"? I know quite a few people with neuromuscular conditions, autism (which btw can manifest itself in such a way that you couldn't even call it a disorder), and other such things. They are wonderful people and just because they can't do some things doesn't make them "defective". Would you change your mind if your kid got depressed when he was 13?
It makes me really sad that you think this

Defective = has a defect. The term is proper.

Depression is curable. Neuromuscular conditions and autism are not. We would rather not deal with that stress, that expense, thanks. Not interested. At all.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Is it okay to abort fetuses if they will have mental or physical disabilities?


No, that should not be a factor at all into why someone should or should not get an abortion.

They can't afford the child or they will die while giving childbirth are the only factors.

Enforce that. Its not like you can govern why somebody chooses to exercise their right if its a right.

My wife and I are in full agreement that we will abort any fetus that is abnormal. We aren't interested in raising a defective child.

Ok let me rephrase:

They can't afford the child or they will die while giving childbirth should the only factors.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

It's not like the fetus has the mental capacity to get offended about concepts like "discrimination."

But we should still have an understanding that some people will choose not to abort (and it's their right to make that choice) or some disabilities won't be known until after the kid is born, and there will still be some disabled people and some need for services to support them.

They're more likely to GET those services if they're less expensive to the taxpayer. They're known to be stingy about this sort of thing. (See also opposition to public healthcare.)

Also, taxpayers are more likely to sympathize with disabilities that are no one's fault than with disabilities that are the parents' fault for giving birth to them.

[Salandriagado]

It is not right to abort a foetus because of a (non-fatal) disability. That doesn't mean that it should be banned.

[The Greater Low Countries]

I want to make it very clear that I only used the word "fetus" in the OP because I needed to be scientific and unbiased. In my honest opinion, the word "fetus" is an awful word that is used to dehumanize the ones yet unborn.

*Gasp!*
We're dehumanizing something that isn't human? How awful! How terrible! We truly are monsters!

When, pray tell, are they humans? How do humans procreate and make something that, even transitionally, is not a human?
I'm not attacking you, I genuinely want to know (an) opposing view(s) on the subject.

It is not right to abort a foetus because of a (non-fatal) disability. That doesn't mean that it should be banned.

You got my point. I'm not looking at whether abortion is okay, I'm looking at whether the decision of abortion should be affected by disability screening.
In fact, I'm updating the poll to say "this should not be a factor" is an option. Change your choice.

[Strength and Order]

Sounds fine to me.

[Olthar]

*Gasp!*
We're dehumanizing something that isn't human? How awful! How terrible! We truly are monsters!

When, pray tell, are they humans? How do humans procreate and make something that, even transitionally, is not a human?
I'm not attacking you, I genuinely want to know (an) opposing view(s) on the subject.

Why should a fetus be human? Because of its DNA? Would you call a puddle of blood on the ground a human? I wouldn't, even if it is a clump of cells with human DNA. In addition, not everything in your body even has human DNA. In fact, the majority of the cells in your body are not really "you," but you still can't live without them. So, the possession of human DNA is, at least, not the only requirement for being human. Thus, it must be something more. Now, what, exactly, that could be is a question that philosophers have debated for thousands of years, so I'll make no claims at answering it here. However, no matter what the answer is, I doubt a fetus qualifies. It doesn't think like a human. It doesn't act like a human. It doesn't even look like a human. It may eventually become a human, but that doesn't mean it is one now. A catapillar is not yet a butterfly.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

*Gasp!*
We're dehumanizing something that isn't human? How awful! How terrible! We truly are monsters!

When, pray tell, are they humans?

I'd draw the line at the third trimester. Sentience and consciousness there is considered comparable to infancy.

Abortion rights are protected there because if we needed an exception for every case of serious medical complications of pregnancy, people could easily deny women genuinely necessary abortions out of fear it'd be used as an excuse.

EDIT: Also, this is just an appeal to ignorance anyway. "When are they humans" being the question doesn't make one arbitrary chemical change any less arbitrary a threshold.

[Kernen]

Enforce that. Its not like you can govern why somebody chooses to exercise their right if its a right.

My wife and I are in full agreement that we will abort any fetus that is abnormal. We aren't interested in raising a defective child.

Ok let me rephrase:

They can't afford the child or they will die while giving childbirth should the only factors.

Why? Its the woman's body. Its the woman's choice. If she wants to abort a fetus because its Tuesday, so be it. Motivation is irrelevant.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

In the end, it's up to the parents/parent/woman, with the medical opinion/help of a health-care provider, what to do if a fetus is presenting deformities or possible life altering conditions. If the decision is to terminate the pregnancy, good. If not, good.

[Costa Fierro]

Some mental disabilities don't manifest until after the child has developed. So you can't really screen for it as you would be able to for others.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

In the end, it's up to the parents/parent/woman, with the medical opinion/help of a health-care provider, what to do if a fetus is presenting deformities or possible life altering conditions. If the decision is to terminate the pregnancy, good. If not, good.

These are my exact same thoughts. People opposed to abortion in this thread are giving a straw man argument that you, I and others with similar views are advocating mandatory abortion for fetuses that show signs of disability.

Hmm... a lot of different opinions, but that's okay, this is NSG, where you meet people all over the political spectrum!
I want to make it very clear that I only used the word "fetus" in the OP because I needed to be scientific and unbiased. In my honest opinion, the word "fetus" is an awful word that is used to dehumanize the ones yet unborn.

Um, no, it is not. The word “fetus” is the appropriate medical terminology. It is not some “evil word” that is used for people that support abortion rights.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

In the end, it's up to the parents/parent/woman, with the medical opinion/help of a health-care provider, what to do if a fetus is presenting deformities or possible life altering conditions. If the decision is to terminate the pregnancy, good. If not, good.

These are my exact same thoughts. People opposed to abortion in this thread are giving a straw man argument that you, I and others with similar views are advocating mandatory abortion for fetuses that show signs of disability.

Hmm... a lot of different opinions, but that's okay, this is NSG, where you meet people all over the political spectrum!
I want to make it very clear that I only used the word "fetus" in the OP because I needed to be scientific and unbiased. In my honest opinion, the word "fetus" is an awful word that is used to dehumanize the ones yet unborn.

Um, no, it is not. The word “fetus” is the appropriate medical terminology. It is not some “evil word” that is used for people that support abortion rights.

Some people are that way. They prefer to attach a wrong interpretation to something because it suits their narrative. No, I would never advocate forcing abortions on people if that's not their expressed wish. In the end, it's up to them what they wish to do regarding a pregnancy.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

These are my exact same thoughts. People opposed to abortion in this thread are giving a straw man argument that you, I and others with similar views are advocating mandatory abortion for fetuses that show signs of disability.


[/b]
Um, no, it is not. The word “fetus” is the appropriate medical terminology. It is not some “evil word” that is used for people that support abortion rights.

Some people are that way. They prefer to attach a wrong interpretation to something because it suits their narrative. No, I would never advocate forcing abortions on people if that's not their expressed wish. In the end, it's up to them what they wish to do regarding a pregnancy.

I would add that the logic expressed those opposed to abortion rights can be used against cutting one’s hair or fingernails. The same goes for a tapeworm....

[USS Monitor]

Supporting abortion based on disabilities is plain eugenics. It is a moral evil, and anyone who supports it might as well go to the nearest disabled person and shout: "I wish you were dead!"

Not at all. Being OK with abortion does not mean you are OK with killing people after they are born.

[USS Monitor]

Fetus =/= humans that have been born.

Sorry, you would say "I wish you were never even born!" Of course, that sounds worse to me. When you advocate for aborting disabled fetuses, you're saying diasbled people should have been aborted. Presumably because they're lesser than you, or something.

It's not about any specific person, though. Saying "you" to a born person makes it sound like you have a problem with them as an individual. It isn't about them as an individual.