Should Siberia become independent?

[Shofercia]

I was reading several articles about how Siberia is constantly being drained for oil, coal, timber, and other minerals, as well as giving huge taxes, and the government gives very few rubles for the governments to use to increase the living standards.

Obviously, Siberia would have a sparse population, as well as a small defense, and other countries may want to invade. An alliance with China would solve that. China has a shrinking habitable area, and the habitable area is heavily polluted. China can provide protection for Siberia, and Siberia can be a place for immigrants from China to slow its overpopulation.

What do you guys think?

Just so we're clear - define Siberia.

Honestly if the peoples living there wanted independence, there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to become independent. Not that Russia would actually allow it, but eh, everything is hypothetical here right?

Post of those "experts" who offer ideas on Siberia have no idea what geographic area they have in mind. In order to see if the people want independence, you'd first have to define which people we're talking about.

I doubt the people in Siberia wouldn't like it anyway. Not to mention that a country like that could easily fall under Chinese influence.

Actually, your first statement isn't true. Siberians have been wanting at least partial independence for a while.

But the second one is right, but what's wrong with that?

What is partial independence?

Also, Russia may let them leave if they risk loosing ties with China.

According to whom?

Meh, anyway, I have to say I don't really support this.

Ending the Russian occupation/annexation of Crimea, Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and the South-Eastern Donbass is a far more important issue for the time being.

If parts of Siberia were to begin gaining independence, such as Buryatia or Tuva, they would, as previously mentioned, likely end up as either Mongolia 2.0 or as Chinese pseudo-puppets.

Can we ask the people there if they view Russian presence as "occupation" or are we just going to take another dump on Direct Democracy?

Do Siberians even want independence?

Nope.

Better Yet, How about we just Balkanize the whole damn country and turn it into a giant power vacuum.

And get nuclear winter in the process.

[Thermodolia]

In a world of competing interests, a benevolent master is far better than an arrogant self-assured master. America intervenes to establish status quos that benefit both America and the citizens of those nations. China annexes entire nations and destroys anything or anyone that stands to oppose it. Try asking a Tibetan if he'd rather be under the shadowy hand of American Imperialism that only self-assured academics espouse or the very real Chinese boot. You won't be pleased with the answer.

What has China annexed in the past decade?

Half of the South China Sea

[The Enclave Government]

In a world of competing interests, a benevolent master is far better than an arrogant self-assured master. America intervenes to establish status quos that benefit both America and the citizens of those nations. China annexes entire nations and destroys anything or anyone that stands to oppose it. Try asking a Tibetan if he'd rather be under the shadowy hand of American Imperialism that only self-assured academics espouse or the very real Chinese boot. You won't be pleased with the answer.

What has China annexed in the past decade?

Only the vaunted "American Imperialism" you deride has stopped it from annexing Taiwan. Tibet has been seething under the Chinese boot for six decades, and China waged war on Vietnam only to be bogged down and retreat claiming victory. If you can find a single neighbor of China (North Korea) aside that in the current year is not either diplomatically opposed to China or financially beholden to it, I'd be rather surprised.

[Dormill and Stiura]

What has China annexed in the past decade?

Half of the South China Sea

inb4 ancient Chinese territory since the Ming.

[The Enclave Government]

Half of the South China Sea

inb4 ancient Chinese territory since the Ming.

The same people that would support this argument also deride Israel's existence which is based on the same logic.

[Rakdai]

What has China annexed in the past decade?

What has America?

Nothing, but it isn't suffering from crippling overpopulation. It has been flexing its power through influence, not land.

[Thermodolia]

What has America?

Nothing, but it isn't suffering from crippling overpopulation. It has been flexing its power through influence, not land.

Well maybe that’s China’s problem not ours. And either way we should stop China from taking over more land

[The Enclave Government]

What has America?

Nothing, but it isn't suffering from crippling overpopulation. It has been flexing its power through influence, not land.

China has more than enough land to sustain its population. It just heavily encourages migration towards the coasts through SEZs and is frankly terrible at management of any of the side effects of that, be they ecological or urban planning.

[Kramanica]

I was reading several articles about how Siberia is constantly being drained for oil, coal, timber, and other minerals, as well as giving huge taxes, and the government gives very few rubles for the governments to use to increase the living standards.

Obviously, Siberia would have a sparse population, as well as a small defense, and other countries may want to invade. An alliance with China would solve that. China has a shrinking habitable area, and the habitable area is heavily polluted. China can provide protection for Siberia, and Siberia can be a place for immigrants from China to slow its overpopulation.

What do you guys think?

Just so we're clear - define Siberia.

Honestly if the peoples living there wanted independence, there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to become independent. Not that Russia would actually allow it, but eh, everything is hypothetical here right?

Post of those "experts" who offer ideas on Siberia have no idea what geographic area they have in mind. In order to see if the people want independence, you'd first have to define which people we're talking about.

Actually, your first statement isn't true. Siberians have been wanting at least partial independence for a while.

But the second one is right, but what's wrong with that?

What is partial independence?

Also, Russia may let them leave if they risk loosing ties with China.

According to whom?

Meh, anyway, I have to say I don't really support this.

Ending the Russian occupation/annexation of Crimea, Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and the South-Eastern Donbass is a far more important issue for the time being.

If parts of Siberia were to begin gaining independence, such as Buryatia or Tuva, they would, as previously mentioned, likely end up as either Mongolia 2.0 or as Chinese pseudo-puppets.

Can we ask the people there if they view Russian presence as "occupation" or are we just going to take another dump on Direct Democracy?

Do Siberians even want independence?

Nope.

Better Yet, How about we just Balkanize the whole damn country and turn it into a giant power vacuum.

And get nuclear winter in the process.

This would be Siberia,
I'd imagine.

Essentially most of the territory of Russia.

[Strength and Order]

They're far worse than the US, don't try and sugarcoat it. China is the greatest threat to Western Civilization right now and has been for years.

I personally feel that Russia's a larger threat for the time being...

Not to say that China's close behind.

No, that's what money-driven Western media want you to believe. I literally had to explain this in my own region a while ago, it's all just paranoia by people who capitalize on sensationalism.

[Hammer Britannia]

Nothing, but it isn't suffering from crippling overpopulation. It has been flexing its power through influence, not land.

Well maybe that’s China’s problem not ours. And either way we should stop China from taking over more land

Or sea in their case

[The New California Republic]

I could not imagine Siberia ever being independent. Sure, the territory has near limitless natural resources, but accessing them is another thing entirely. That shit costs money, and I doubt an independent Siberia would have the money to invest in the infrastructure required to extract said resources.

[The Greater Atlantic States]

I personally feel that Russia's a larger threat for the time being...

Not to say that China's close behind.

No, that's what money-driven Western media want you to believe. I literally had to explain this in my own region a while ago, it's all just paranoia by people who capitalize on sensationalism.

So, the country that sits there menacingly with somewhat minor territorial disputes (compared to Russia) and occasionally kills international journalists and politicians is worse than the country that actively forcefully occupies/has integrated puppet states in large sections of the territory of it's neighbors, and often kills/poisons international journalists and politicians?

Really?

[Shofercia]

russia is only russian in the west part anyway

Really? So can you tell the difference between the people in Vladivostok, and the people in Vladikavkaz?

They're far worse than the US, don't try and sugarcoat it. China is the greatest threat to Western Civilization right now and has been for years.

I personally feel that Russia's a larger threat for the time being...

Not to say that China's close behind.

Interestingly enough, we don't divide up countries based on the feelings of online posters.

I personally feel that Russia's a larger threat for the time being...

Not to say that China's close behind.

Russia lacks the economic, demographic, or even military clout to pose a veritable threat to the West. The U.S Department of Education has a larger budget than the Russian Armed Forces.

Nope.

Why Siberia wants independence

Ahh, the Guardian, whose wet dream it is to partition Russia.

Feliks Rivkin, an activist in Yekaterinburg, says he will be leading a demonstration in his home city at the weekend to force Moscow to live up to the Russian constitution and give Russian regions their federal rights. Even if the authorities refuse, he adds, his group plans to go ahead anyway.

Uhh, so asking the Russian Government to adhere to Russian Law is the equivalent of declaring independence from Russia. Gotcha. I have a feeling this thread's going to deliver.

Meanwhile, in the semi-autonomous Russian enclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, local activists are picking up on the same ideas. One Moscow commentator, Vladimir Titov, argues...

First, Kalingrad is a special oblast, having as much autonomy as Moscow Oblast, Leningrad Oblast, and the misnamed Jewish Autonomous Oblast, which is neither Jewish, not autonomous. Second, they couldn't even find someone in Kaliningrad to talk about independence, so they had to pick someone in Moscow. Third, who the fuck is Vladimir Titov? I looked him up, and for the past four years only link is to that article. You sure someone didn't just make up a name to troll the Guardian? Fourth, that article's from 2014, so where's all the movement? Fifth, the biggest anti-Putin protests have been over him raising the retirement age. "You can take my life, actually, no, you cannot, and erm, I want my pension too! And you may or may not take my freedom."

[De Almerland]

Siberia can't become independent it's a geographical region East of the Urals made up of many Oblasts (states).

[The Greater Atlantic States]

russia is only russian in the west part anyway

Really? So can you tell the difference between the people in Vladivostok, and the people in Vladikavkaz?

I personally feel that Russia's a larger threat for the time being...

Not to say that China's close behind.

Interestingly enough, we don't divide up countries based on the feelings of online posters.

Russia lacks the economic, demographic, or even military clout to pose a veritable threat to the West. The U.S Department of Education has a larger budget than the Russian Armed Forces.

Nope.

Why Siberia wants independence

Ahh, the Guardian, whose wet dream it is to partition Russia.

Feliks Rivkin, an activist in Yekaterinburg, says he will be leading a demonstration in his home city at the weekend to force Moscow to live up to the Russian constitution and give Russian regions their federal rights. Even if the authorities refuse, he adds, his group plans to go ahead anyway.

Uhh, so asking the Russian Government to adhere to Russian Law is the equivalent of declaring independence from Russia. Gotcha. I have a feeling this thread's going to deliver.

Meanwhile, in the semi-autonomous Russian enclave of Kaliningrad, sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania, local activists are picking up on the same ideas. One Moscow commentator, Vladimir Titov, argues...

First, Kalingrad is a special oblast, having as much autonomy as Moscow Oblast, Leningrad Oblast, and the misnamed Jewish Autonomous Oblast, which is neither Jewish, not autonomous. Second, they couldn't even find someone in Kaliningrad to talk about independence, so they had to pick someone in Moscow. Third, who the fuck is Vladimir Titov? I looked him up, and for the past four years only link is to that article. You sure someone didn't just make up a name to troll the Guardian? Fourth, that article's from 2014, so where's all the movement? Fifth, the biggest anti-Putin protests have been over him raising the retirement age. "You can take my life, actually, no, you cannot, and erm, I want my pension too! And you may or may not take my freedom."

I don't want to actively divide Russia, I just want them to return to their internationally recognized borders and stop supporting their puppet states.

It would be nice to have a divided Russia, but it would also be nice to have a divided America and China. Those three countries likely aren't going to be fully divided/break up in the near future.

[The Archregimancy]

Well, at least it's an original topic.

I see no serious suggestion that anyone in Siberia (beyond perhaps a couple of individuals who may intend for the concept to be satire) wants independence, nor that there is any serious political party advocating even increased autonomy.

So it's sort of a moot point, really; a bit like asking 'should the pre-Nunavut Northwest Territories become independent from Canada', or 'should Amazonia become independent from Brazil'.

Summed up... it's a silly suggestion.

Which likely won't stop Shofercia from getting somewhat worked up at this grave insult to Russian territorial integrity and national pride.

[Shofercia]

This would be Siberia,
I'd imagine.

Essentially most of the territory of Russia.

Ahh, ok. Well those regions definitely don't want independence.

No, that's what money-driven Western media want you to believe. I literally had to explain this in my own region a while ago, it's all just paranoia by people who capitalize on sensationalism.

So, the country that sits there menacingly with somewhat minor territorial disputes (compared to Russia) and occasionally kills international journalists and politicians is worse than the country that actively forcefully occupies/has integrated puppet states in large sections of the territory of it's neighbors, and often kills/poisons international journalists and politicians?

Really?

Again, can we ask the people of Crimea, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, (which Russia doesn't actually occupy, but who cares about facts when there's propaganda,) etc, if they view what the Russians are doing as an occupation? As for often killing international journalists, since you claim it's often, well, once a month could be often, so please list 120 international journalists that Russia killed since 2009. It's hilarious when people whine/act outraged about Human Rights, and then turn around and completely ignore Referendum Rights when it no longer benefits their needs.

[Gospel Power]

In my personal opinion that is Not a good idea, considering that Moscow is the business center of the Russian federation, they would need to start all over again with their economy, and China would glance at their resources, and there are many Nationalities
( as Russians, Buryats, Tuvinians, Yakuts, and Siberian Tatars )
and I don't sure they would like to work together because of cultural differences, 40 million people can't control 13 million kilometers easily, it's very difficult for Russia to keep it 17 million kilometers with just 150 million people, it's better for them to stay a part of Russia, they have Auotonomy to practice their faith and traditions, and to speak their language alongside with Russian, so I don't see reason for independent Siberia

[The South Falls]

There's barely anyone in Siberia. There's not enough manpower to justify it becoming a state, and it wouldn't have enough people to mine it's vast resources. It'd be a puppet state in a few years, and Russia would try to "reclaim" it like it did Ukraine. We don't need civil war at -66C.

[Risottia]

I was reading several articles about how Siberia is constantly being drained for oil, coal, timber, and other minerals, as well as giving huge taxes, and the government gives very few rubles for the governments to use to increase the living standards.

Obviously, Siberia would have a sparse population, as well as a small defense, and other countries may want to invade. An alliance with China would solve that. China has a shrinking habitable area, and the habitable area is heavily polluted. China can provide protection for Siberia, and Siberia can be a place for immigrants from China to slow its overpopulation.

What do you guys think?

No. Siberia is an integral part of Russia, and the Chinese and the Americans better keep their greedy, small hands off it.

[Shofercia]

I don't want to actively divide Russia, I just want them to return to their internationally recognized borders and stop supporting their puppet states.

It would be nice to have a divided Russia, but it would also be nice to have a divided America and China. Those three countries likely aren't going to be fully divided/break up in the near future.

But why can't Crimeans be with Russia, if that's what they genuinely want?

[Shofercia]

where Shofercia will help explain to us why Russia's victory over / draw with / loss to [delete as appropriate] Saudi Arabia demonstrates why Transnistria should be recognised as a legitimate sovereign nation state

Haven't done that in said thread.

Which likely won't stop Shofercia from getting somewhat worked up at this grave insult to Russian territorial integrity and national pride.

Haven't done that either. Calm down Arch.

[The Greater Atlantic States]

I don't want to actively divide Russia, I just want them to return to their internationally recognized borders and stop supporting their puppet states.

It would be nice to have a divided Russia, but it would also be nice to have a divided America and China. Those three countries likely aren't going to be fully divided/break up in the near future.

But why can't Crimeans be with Russia, if that's what they genuinely want?

Why couldn't the Chechens be independent, if that's what they want? (or at least, wanted)

Was there ever a referendum held there after the war(s) were over to decide if they wanted independence?

[Rakdai]

In my personal opinion that is Not a good idea, consider that Moscow is the business center of the Russian federation, they would need to start all over again with their economy, and China would glance at their resources, and there are many Nationalities
( as Russians, Buryats, Tuvinians, Yakuts, and Siberian Tatars )
and I don't sure they would like to work together because of cultural differences, 40 million people can't control 13 million kilometer easily, it's very difficult for Russia to keep it 17 million kilometers with just 150 million people, it's better for them to stay a part of Russia, they have Auotonomy to practice their faith and traditions, and to speak their language alongside with Russian, so I don't see reason for independent Siberia

Actually, Moscow just exploits Siberia, and provides little assistance to Siberia other than military force.

There is nothing Moscow can do that other countries, whether it be China or America, can do.