Should Siberia become independent?

[Thanatttynia]

Good luck convincing Russia to let go of the source of its geopolitical power and material wealth.

Why so harsh? I mean, it’s just a country.

It's not a country it's one of the world's last racist empires.

China is terrible too, I'll give you that. Ideally Siberia could be properly decolonized but at this point I'd take Siberia becoming a democratic Chinese protectorate as the most reasonable good outcome. Of course that isn't going to happen though.

'Democratic Chinese protectorates' don't tend to stay democratic for long.

[Farnhamia]

Fuck Russia. China should decolonize Siberia from the yoke of the Slavified Finnish Golden Horde.

You lost a nation just about six weeks ago for harassing Shofercia and being a prat about Russia. Stop it, stop it now, or you will be looking for a new place to play. Take me seriously or not but you do the latter at your own risk.

[New Wrepland]

It's not a country it's one of the world's last racist empires.

China is terrible too, I'll give you that. Ideally Siberia could be properly decolonized but at this point I'd take Siberia becoming a democratic Chinese protectorate as the most reasonable good outcome. Of course that isn't going to happen though.

I... what? What are you talking about?

I'm half BS'ing for the hell of it but what I say is true.

Russia's borders do not correspond with the ethnic identity of those who live within them. Tatars, Chechens, Circassians, and other North Caucasians are among some of the many people trapped within Russia's borders. Russia can most accurately be compared to the Golden Horde, the ancient Mongol khanate, given the system by which it functions. At the top is the Khan, Putin, who rules pretty brutally over his fiefdoms each of which has a varying degree of autonomy. For example, Aman Tuleyev received a slap on the wrist from Putin due to the fire in Kemerovo whereas Kadyrov is basically autonomous and goes as far as accepting subsidies from Saudi Arabia. Either way the people under their rule are fucked. Maybe Siberia would be better off as a Chinese vassal.

[Senkaku]

China has a shrinking habitable area, and the habitable area is heavily polluted. China can provide protection for Siberia, and Siberia can be a place for immigrants from China to slow its overpopulation.

What do you guys think?

I think this is already happening, regardless of Siberia's independence.

[New Wrepland]

It's not a country it's one of the world's last racist empires.

China is terrible too, I'll give you that. Ideally Siberia could be properly decolonized but at this point I'd take Siberia becoming a democratic Chinese protectorate as the most reasonable good outcome. Of course that isn't going to happen though.

'Democratic Chinese protectorates' don't tend to stay democratic for long.

Well Hong Kong has a few years left. We'll see.

[Shofercia]

I... what? What are you talking about?

I'm half BS'ing for the hell of it but what I say is true.

Russia's borders do not correspond with the ethnic identity of those who live within them. Tatars, Chechens, Circassians, and other North Caucasians are among some of the many people trapped within Russia's borders. Russia can most accurately be compared to the Golden Horde, the ancient Mongol khanate, given the system by which it functions. At the top is the Khan, Putin, who rules pretty brutally over his fiefdoms each of which has a varying degree of autonomy. For example, Aman Tuleyev received a slap on the wrist from Putin due to the fire in Kemerovo whereas Kadyrov is basically autonomous and goes as far as accepting subsidies from Saudi Arabia. Either way the people under their rule are fucked. Maybe Siberia would be better off as a Chinese vassal.

Neither do America's, so what? Are we supposed to draw purely ethnic borders? I also don't recall the majority of the serfs/slaves voting for Mr. Khan, whereas President Putin gets broad support all across the board. I should also note that taking bribes to promote shoddy architecture leading to a fire should be punished, whereas promoting FDI in your region should be rewarded.

[New Wrepland]

Neither do America's, so what? Are we supposed to draw purely ethnic borders? I also don't recall the majority of the serfs/slaves voting for Mr. Khan, whereas President Putin gets broad support all across the board. I should also note that taking bribes to promote shoddy architecture leading to a fire should be punished, whereas promoting FDI in your region should be rewarded.

Yes they do.

The principle you express here seems to be different from the one you express in regard to the issue of North Kosovo and several other places.

Yea he got punished by becoming the speaker of the Kemerovo Duma, right? That sounds harsh. Promoting FDI in your region should be rewarded but in that case it clearly was a geopolitical issue as well.

[Shofercia]

Neither do America's, so what? Are we supposed to draw purely ethnic borders? I also don't recall the majority of the serfs/slaves voting for Mr. Khan, whereas President Putin gets broad support all across the board. I should also note that taking bribes to promote shoddy architecture leading to a fire should be punished, whereas promoting FDI in your region should be rewarded.

Yes they do.

The principle you express here seems to be different from the one you express in regard to the issue of North Kosovo and several other places.

Yea he got punished by becoming the speaker of the Kemerovo Duma, right? That sounds harsh. Promoting FDI in your region should be rewarded but in that case it clearly was a geopolitical issue as well.

I was talking about the people living in North Kosovo, including those who aren't Serbs, like the Gorani. If a region wants to leave, it should be allowed to, and I disagree with Russia's Government's stance saying otherwise. However, what you're proposing is to draw lines based on ethnicity - what's the point? What's next, lines based on familial ties? No Montesquieu approaching Capulet domain? Also, FDI can involve geopolitical issues, and wasn't it you who claimed that he got a slap on the wrist?

[Senkaku]

I'm half BS'ing for the hell of it but what I say is true.

Russia's borders do not correspond with the ethnic identity of those who live within them. Tatars, Chechens, Circassians, and other North Caucasians are among some of the many people trapped within Russia's borders. Russia can most accurately be compared to the Golden Horde, the ancient Mongol khanate, given the system by which it functions. At the top is the Khan, Putin, who rules pretty brutally over his fiefdoms each of which has a varying degree of autonomy. For example, Aman Tuleyev received a slap on the wrist from Putin due to the fire in Kemerovo whereas Kadyrov is basically autonomous and goes as far as accepting subsidies from Saudi Arabia. Either way the people under their rule are fucked. Maybe Siberia would be better off as a Chinese vassal.

Neither do America's, so what? Are we supposed to draw purely ethnic borders? I also don't recall the majority of the serfs/slaves voting for Mr. Khan, whereas President Putin gets broad support all across the board.

By "across the board" are we mainly talking about the military, the security services, the oligarchs, and the criminal underworld?

I should also note that taking bribes to promote shoddy architecture leading to a fire should be punished, whereas promoting FDI in your region should be rewarded.

"Promoting FDI" is a euphemism for "disappearing/murdering the gays" now? You already know I'm not Putin's biggest fan, but making excuses for Kadyrov? Truly, you've sunk to new lows, Shof.

[Shofercia]

Neither do America's, so what? Are we supposed to draw purely ethnic borders? I also don't recall the majority of the serfs/slaves voting for Mr. Khan, whereas President Putin gets broad support all across the board.

By "across the board" are we mainly talking about the military, the security services, the oligarchs, and the criminal underworld?

I should also note that taking bribes to promote shoddy architecture leading to a fire should be punished, whereas promoting FDI in your region should be rewarded.

"Promoting FDI" is a euphemism for "disappearing/murdering the gays" now? You already know I'm not Putin's biggest fan, but making excuses for Kadyrov? Truly, you've sunk to new lows, Shof.

Pointing out that not everything Kadyrov does is pure evil, is a bad thing? So saying "even a broken clock is wrong twice a day" is evil? Wow, that's kind of sad, Senkaku.

As for popularity, here's the Economist, an anti-Putin magazine, admitting to his popularity:

[Pope Joan]

Isn't Lake Baikal in Siberia, geographically? It is a beautiful place.

I think if any nation wants to be independent they should have some access to international transportation, preferably a deep water port. Despite global warming, I do not think Archangelsk is s four season port yet. That would be the most likely option for Siberian access to world commerce. They have served as the gateway to Siberia.

[Tlerzhenvoa]

Russia is one of the only European nations that still controls most of its colonial empire. If Siberia/Tuva/anything else wants to secede, then they absolutely should be able to.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Should it?(I agree with it) Да. Would it be able to? (I disagree with it) Нет.

[United Imperial Systems]

As this thread demonstrates, you are fully capable of making a mistake.

But am not allowed to admit it, because I am obviously trying to mislead people.

My issue was that you were throwing out unsubstantiated numbers. If you would've said Russia spends $10 billion on propaganda, and listed out the sources, it would've been different. But your post sounded like "Russia's spending trillions, oh shit, someone called me out on that, well ok, I'll say billions!"

Yeah, I meant to say billions but said trillions, big fucking surprise I made an error when translating it from Russian, but that totally means that all I do is throw out different numbers trying to mislead people, right?

Kind of hard for anyone to ignore that, when you never presented it. In order for something to be ignored, it should be first presented. And yes, you were totally wrong when you said trillions, and saying "country X spends trillions, erm, well, ok, billions on propaganda" is the very definition of throwing random numbers around.

Dunno mate, because that definetly not what I said, I didn't just say "Oh shit I cannot exaggerate the amount of money that Russia spends on media because some one called me out!", I don't know where you even got that.
I made a translation error, I wasn't trying to mislead people, which is what you are trying to say.

Don't care about the video. My point was that you were throwing out unsubstantiated numbers. You've attempted to substantiate those, only after you were called out. That's on you.

Yeah, don't care about the video, who needs to care about a video that could, I dunno, at least show you that I wasn't trying to mislead people since you think that's the only thing I want to do?

[Kustonia]

I was reading several articles about how Siberia is constantly being drained for oil, coal, timber, and other minerals, as well as giving huge taxes, and the government gives very few rubles for the governments to use to increase the living standards.

Obviously, Siberia would have a sparse population, as well as a small defense, and other countries may want to invade. An alliance with China would solve that. China has a shrinking habitable area, and the habitable area is heavily polluted. China can provide protection for Siberia, and Siberia can be a place for immigrants from China to slow its overpopulation.

What do you guys think?

I think this is the worst idea ever formulated. You really think China cares about Siberia? Well, even if they did, China owns the world's economy anyway - that means letting them take Siberia would spell disaster.

Plus, what about the Tatar, Siberian, and Russian natives? Immigrants would demographically destroy the native population.

Are you insane?

[East Gondwana]

"Siberia" just refers to the territory of Russia to the east of the Urals. It's not an ethnically, culturally, linguistically, or economically homogeneous place. Neither is Russia as whole either, but if Siberia just split with european Russia, why bother? They would be much worse off and wouldn't gain anything. Places like Tuva and Sakha going for independence would make much more sense, though of course none of this is realistic now or in the foreseeable future.

[Kustonia]

Fuck Russia. China should decolonize Siberia from the yoke of the Slavified Finnish Golden Horde.

Be careful what you say. There are ethnic Slavs here, like myself, who are looking and posting. Russia is the heart and the center of the Slavic world. Who else do those countries have to rely on? Not the imperialistic West, that's for sure.

[Shofercia]

As this thread demonstrates, you are fully capable of making a mistake.

But am not allowed to admit it, because I am obviously trying to mislead people.

You were called out on it, and then admitted it.

My issue was that you were throwing out unsubstantiated numbers. If you would've said Russia spends $10 billion on propaganda, and listed out the sources, it would've been different. But your post sounded like "Russia's spending trillions, oh shit, someone called me out on that, well ok, I'll say billions!"

Yeah, I meant to say billions but said trillions, big fucking surprise I made an error when translating it from Russian, but that totally means that all I do is throw out different numbers trying to mislead people, right?

Never said that it's all you do. It is what you've done in this thread.

Kind of hard for anyone to ignore that, when you never presented it. In order for something to be ignored, it should be first presented. And yes, you were totally wrong when you said trillions, and saying "country X spends trillions, erm, well, ok, billions on propaganda" is the very definition of throwing random numbers around.

Dunno mate, because that definetly not what I said, I didn't just say "Oh shit I cannot exaggerate the amount of money that Russia spends on media because some one called me out!", I don't know where you even got that.
I made a translation error, I wasn't trying to mislead people, which is what you are trying to say.

You definitely weren't trying.

I am saying that in that one specific example, you were caught bullshitting. One example. That's it. You're pretending that instead of it being just one example, it's forum-wide. Not cool.

Don't care about the video. My point was that you were throwing out unsubstantiated numbers. You've attempted to substantiate those, only after you were called out. That's on you.

Yeah, don't care about the video, who needs to care about a video that could, I dunno, at least show you that I wasn't trying to mislead people since you think that's the only thing I want to do?

Once again, my point was that if you said: "Russia is spending $10 billion on propaganda, and here are the sources" - that would've been one thing. If you said "Russia is spending $10 trillion on propaganda, and he are the sources" then we could've realized that you meant billion. However, we're not mind readers on NSG, so until you actually produce sources, we don't know if you're bullshitting or not.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Shof buddy, let it go. 'twas just a mistake, there's no reason to continually drag it out.

[Vsyerossiya]

Be careful what you say. There are ethnic Slavs here, like myself, who are looking and posting. Russia is the heart and the center of the Slavic world. Who else do those countries have to rely on? Not the imperialistic West, that's for sure.

Эй братан! Americans/westerners don’t like independent Russia, because we are the only competition. You are absolutely right that we cannot trust the west.
Look at how the Catholic Church treated our great hero Alyeksandr Nyevskiy. Look at Bonapart’s war against Impyerator Alyeksandr Pavlovich. Look at the German Reikh’s invasion.

As for Slavs who join the west, their fate is sealed. Poland joined the west and has been suffering ever since. Polish pany thought they could conquer our land, but they are now punished for their fratricide.

[Shofercia]

"Siberia" just refers to the territory of Russia to the east of the Urals. It's not an ethnically, culturally, linguistically, or economically homogeneous place. Neither is Russia as whole either, but if Siberia just split with european Russia, why bother? They would be much worse off and wouldn't gain anything. Places like Tuva and Sakha going for independence would make much more sense, though of course none of this is realistic now or in the foreseeable future.

When did Sakha actually want independence? Tuva voluntarily joined the USSR, in the 1940s. The people there don't want independence. What they do want, is what we have in California, a system of regional Direct Democracy. I think they should be granted that, but even then, their secession from Russia is like California's secession from the US - very unrealistic.

[Shofercia]

Shof buddy, let it go. 'twas just a mistake, there's no reason to continually drag it out.

He's the one responding to me, pretending that my statement of calling out his bullshit in a single thread prevents him from ever admitting he's wrong on NSG.

[United Imperial Systems]

You were called out on it, and then admitted it.

Meaning that I'm full of shit?

Never said that it's all you do. It is what you've done in this thread.

Okay, make it more clear?
I'd be fine with you pointing out a mistake if no one else did it before, but instead you make it seem like this lone post means that I am absolutely full of shit, read how you wrote the first one and maybe you'll understand what I mean.

You definitely weren't trying.

I am saying that in that one specific example, you were caught bullshitting. One example. That's it. You're pretending that instead of it being just one example, it's forum-wide. Not cool.

Yeah, because that's how you make it look, intentional or not.

Once again, my point was that if you said: "Russia is spending $10 billion on propaganda, and here are the sources" - that would've been one thing. If you said "Russia is spending $10 trillion on propaganda, and he are the sources" then we could've realized that you meant billion. However, we're not mind readers on NSG, so until you actually produce sources, we don't know if you're bullshitting or not.

All of my sources are on Russian, it would be of no real use to post them on NS forums, no one would understand it anyways apart from you and maybe a few other Russian speaking people, but I did post a source and I did correct myself.
Regardless, it doesn't matter.
You'd still say "You moron, it clearly says billions not trillions.", and be honest now, this is how you would respond, not in the "Oh well we could've understood you actually meant billions".
People tend to assume to worse, this touches me, you, and every single other human being.

He's the one responding to me, pretending that my statement of calling out his bullshit in a single thread prevents him from ever admitting he's wrong on NSG.

She*
And yeah that sort of does discourage me to admit I'm wrong, since your reaction discourages such behavior.

[Krasny-Volny]

If Putin doesn't briefly revive the Red Army and marches back into the wastes, then an independent Siberia will become a new political battleground between China and Russia.

I'd rather not have two authoritarian states fighting endless proxy wars over a sparsely populated but resource rich land, but I suppose it'd drive the Sino-Russian split far enough to throw Moscow right into the hands of Europe and America, I'll let everybody else debate how great or awful that'll be.

Russia and China are not fighting an endless proxy war over Mongolia, why would they for Siberia?

[Krasny-Volny]

I... what? What are you talking about?

I'm half BS'ing for the hell of it but what I say is true.

Russia's borders do not correspond with the ethnic identity of those who live within them.

Neither does China's.

China is not monolithically Han, and like Russia it's always been more of an empire with perpetual imperial ambitions than a country. The current Chinese borders, like Russia's, were arrived at by military conquest rather than voluntary unification.