Food Stamps

[Dogmeat]

Oh god this stupid shit again.

Collapse of the Soviet Union. Best example of this. Checkmate commie.

But the Russian economy tanked when they switched to free market. The GDP per capita didn't recover until almost 2005.

[Rockwellshire]

Collapse of the Soviet Union. Best example of this. Checkmate commie.

But the Russian economy tanked when they switched to free market. The GDP per capita didn't recover until almost 2005.

Okay, so you're dismissing the rise of the oligarchs? East Germany did well before the collapse because of devolved powers and after Germany made them into a powerhouse. Poland recovered remarkably quickly with free market policies and free trade coming into vogue. The Baltics rocketed and Estonia still has a flat tax to this day. The only countries that did not due well all suffered from internal conflicts. Russia went through "shock treatment" which resulted in a crony government instead of a free market(think China now). That and their extended internal conflict and the death of Yeltsin led to them never focusing on a solid direction while still spending money on the Yugoslav conflicts when they didn't have that money

[Dogmeat]

But the Russian economy tanked when they switched to free market. The GDP per capita didn't recover until almost 2005.

Okay, so you're dismissing the rise of the oligarchs? East Germany did well before the collapse because of devolved powers and after Germany made them into a powerhouse. Poland recovered remarkably quickly with free market policies and free trade coming into vogue. The Baltics rocketed and Estonia still has a flat tax to this day. The only countries that did not due well all suffered from internal conflicts. Russia went through "shock treatment" which resulted in a crony government instead of a free market(think China now). That and their extended internal conflict and the death of Yeltsin led to them never focusing on a solid direction while still spending money on the Yugoslav conflicts when they didn't have that money

Hey mate, it's not my problem that your unbeatable "checkmate" example failed at the slightest glance. You don't have to make excuses for it, just admit it was a terrible card to try and play.

[Neutraligon]

An idea I've long had is to not give the recipients any stamps at all. Instead of giving a stamp or card that can be redeemed for any food item at a grocery store, the welfare office itself should be responsible for choosing and delivering food to the recipients. The amount and what kind would be determined by how much the person or family would need to get through to the next delivery as well as things like children, the elderly, pregnant, etc. having different carb, protein, and fruit/vegetable micronutrient requirements. No more "I can only eat junk food and weigh 150 kilos because eating healthy is just so expensive", which doesn't hold up to scrutiny anyway when you compare what you can do with a roasting chicken, broccoli, and some potatoes or rice against any junk food item, pre-prepared meal, or dollar menu item. Going through college, I replaced the chicken with a couple huge sacks of beans and lentils (I sometimes go vegetarian), got a 50 pound bag of rice from the Asian market (which along with the beans could last for a couple months, even with two people eating them), so even if I had the bare minimum the welfare office gave on an EBT, I'd still have a lot left over for fruits and vegetables and also soy and sriracha sauce so it wasn't all bland.

Ok first how do you deal with people with different dietary needs. Second how do you deal with people living in the country. Third how would you deal with the fact that food deserts exist. Fourth how wold you deal with people who say eat vegetarian or kosher or certain ethnic foods.

[Rockwellshire]

Okay, so you're dismissing the rise of the oligarchs? East Germany did well before the collapse because of devolved powers and after Germany made them into a powerhouse. Poland recovered remarkably quickly with free market policies and free trade coming into vogue. The Baltics rocketed and Estonia still has a flat tax to this day. The only countries that did not due well all suffered from internal conflicts. Russia went through "shock treatment" which resulted in a crony government instead of a free market(think China now). That and their extended internal conflict and the death of Yeltsin led to them never focusing on a solid direction while still spending money on the Yugoslav conflicts when they didn't have that money

Hey mate, it's not my problem that your unbeatable "checkmate" example failed at the slightest glance. You don't have to make excuses for it, just admit it was a terrible card to try and play.

Says the one who replies purely in ad hominum and strawmen. Great job mate, you're argument is utter shambles. Learn to debate

[Dogmeat]

Hey mate, it's not my problem that your unbeatable "checkmate" example failed at the slightest glance. You don't have to make excuses for it, just admit it was a terrible card to try and play.

Says the one who replies purely in ad hominum and strawmen. Great job mate, you're argument is utter shambles. Learn to debate

Yeah... that's not an ad hom or a strawman.

[Thermodolia]

Abolish food stamps, SS, Medicare/caid, abolish the federal minimum wage. Essentiall scrap all welfare and cut military spending by a third and give every a modest basic income. That will sustain people for a good while while forcing them to find work. Taxes would drastically be lowered so companies could pay more, though they won't, and employees will keep nearly every penny of their pay and everyone gets welfare instead of just a couple groups of people.

Dumb idea is dumb. Also UBI doesn’t work

[Thermodolia]

No I just have more of an understanding of economics than 'privatize everything!'.

As do I. Thus reducing the military size to pay down the debt thus enabling the savings from interest payments to go elsewhere such as the basic income.

Oh hell no.

I left state minimum wage alone as the federal minimum wage was wreaking havoc on the Puerto Rican economy.

No that would be the corruption in PR that makes ChiTown look like child’s play

States could also set up welfare programs on their own. In effect it's a massive devolution of powers so liberal states would run one system while conservative states have another. Devolution is usually better for everyone economically speaking.

What is food stamps?

[Len Hyet]

Abolish food stamps, SS, Medicare/caid, abolish the federal minimum wage. Essentiall scrap all welfare and cut military spending by a third and give every a modest basic income. That will sustain people for a good while while forcing them to find work. Taxes would drastically be lowered so companies could pay more, though they won't, and employees will keep nearly every penny of their pay and everyone gets welfare instead of just a couple groups of people.

Dumb idea is dumb. Also UBI doesn’t work

Actually the math on UBI works. Give every American citizen living in the US over the age of 21 $10,000 per anum (pegged to inflation), and scrap every other welfare program out there. It would actually save us money. This guy talk about $13,000 with $3,000 for insurance but the point stands.

[Thermodolia]

Dumb idea is dumb. Also UBI doesn’t work

Actually the math on UBI works. Give every American citizen living in the US over the age of 21 $10,000 per anum (pegged to inflation), and scrap every other welfare program out there. It would actually save us money. This guy talk about $13,000 with $3,000 for insurance but the point stands.

Yes on paper it’s a great idea. However in practice it never actually works.

[Senkaku]

Actually the math on UBI works. Give every American citizen living in the US over the age of 21 $10,000 per anum (pegged to inflation), and scrap every other welfare program out there. It would actually save us money. This guy talk about $13,000 with $3,000 for insurance but the point stands.

Yes on paper it’s a great idea. However in practice it never actually works.

I mean, it seems rather early to be concluding that "it never works in practice", since experiments haven't been terribly conclusive but have generally shown some good effects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_pilots

[Washington Resistance Army]

Dumb idea is dumb. Also UBI doesn’t work

Actually the math on UBI works. Give every American citizen living in the US over the age of 21 $10,000 per anum (pegged to inflation), and scrap every other welfare program out there. It would actually save us money. This guy talk about $13,000 with $3,000 for insurance but the point stands.

While I like the idea of UBI in theory part of me still feels like it would be pretty lacking as a singular means of welfare. People that can't work will need more than $10,000 per year and it feels pretty wasteful to just throw it at people that are well off.

[Genivaria]

Actually the math on UBI works. Give every American citizen living in the US over the age of 21 $10,000 per anum (pegged to inflation), and scrap every other welfare program out there. It would actually save us money. This guy talk about $13,000 with $3,000 for insurance but the point stands.

While I like the idea of UBI in theory part of me still feels like it would be pretty lacking as a singular means of welfare. People that can't work will need more than $10,000 per year and it feels pretty wasteful to just throw it at people that are well off.

Mandatory work for the unemployed. *nods*

[Washington Resistance Army]

While I like the idea of UBI in theory part of me still feels like it would be pretty lacking as a singular means of welfare. People that can't work will need more than $10,000 per year and it feels pretty wasteful to just throw it at people that are well off.

Mandatory work for the unemployed. *nods*

Also not a bad idea, there's plenty of public works projects we could implement to fix shit but that's not permanent and still doesn't help the disabled.

[Senkaku]

Mandatory work for the unemployed. *nods*

Also not a bad idea, there's plenty of public works projects we could implement to fix shit but that's not permanent and still doesn't help the disabled.

You don't need legs to operate a robot from afar, or hearing to use a shovel, or whatever. Like any work, each task in a project would have different restrictions as to how disabled people could or could not be integrated in.

[Valrifell]

Actually the math on UBI works. Give every American citizen living in the US over the age of 21 $10,000 per anum (pegged to inflation), and scrap every other welfare program out there. It would actually save us money. This guy talk about $13,000 with $3,000 for insurance but the point stands.

While I like the idea of UBI in theory part of me still feels like it would be pretty lacking as a singular means of welfare. People that can't work will need more than $10,000 per year and it feels pretty wasteful to just throw it at people that are well off.

You'd probably have UBI in a certain income bracket of the population, but like a really really broad one so 10k/yr won't feel like that much.

Mandatory work for the unemployed. *nods*

Also not a bad idea, there's plenty of public works projects we could implement to fix shit but that's not permanent and still doesn't help the disabled.

I don't think it should be mandatory, but the government should be encouraging employment through public works.

[Genivaria]

Also not a bad idea, there's plenty of public works projects we could implement to fix shit but that's not permanent and still doesn't help the disabled.

You don't need legs to operate a robot from afar, or hearing to use a shovel, or whatever. Like any work, each task in a project would have different restrictions as to how disabled people could or could not be integrated in.

American Sign Language is increasingly common nowadays I should mention.

A recent estimate claims that around 13 million people have some level of proficiency in sign language. That makes American Sign Language the third most commonly used language in the US!

[Washington Resistance Army]

Also not a bad idea, there's plenty of public works projects we could implement to fix shit but that's not permanent and still doesn't help the disabled.

You don't need legs to operate a robot from afar, or hearing to use a shovel, or whatever. Like any work, each task in a project would have different restrictions as to how disabled people could or could not be integrated in.

Yeah you're not wrong, I was just speaking in a more broad sense.

Either way we should totes use public works and other such things to fix our infrastructure and shit, we badly need it.

[Rockwellshire]

While I like the idea of UBI in theory part of me still feels like it would be pretty lacking as a singular means of welfare. People that can't work will need more than $10,000 per year and it feels pretty wasteful to just throw it at people that are well off.

Mandatory work for the unemployed. *nods*

THIS! Even the disabled can usually type or file documents. Mentally disabled can easily do things such as pick up trash, clean stuff, and they would love to do it usually. Non-disabled people could do other things like lawn maintenance, building projects, fill potholes, etc.

But if a welfare system is in place they will rebel. Same with minimum wage. UBI is the gateway to keeping them quiet and happy.

[95X]

What is food stamps?

Wikipedia has the answer!

Mandatory work for the unemployed. *nods*

THIS! Even the disabled can usually type or file documents. Mentally disabled can easily do things such as pick up trash, clean stuff, and they would love to do it usually. Non-disabled people could do other things like lawn maintenance, building projects, fill potholes, etc.

But if a welfare system is in place they will rebel. Same with minimum wage. UBI is the gateway to keeping them quiet and happy.

Although I'd agree work programs are the right idea, suppose one's non-government-subsidized living situation requires them to live with family in a deeply rural area where jobs are hard to come by and require prior training, and high-speed internet is not available and/or they don't own a computer, so telecommuting isn't possible.

Or someone in an urban area is unable to fill available positions for any number of reasons (ex., child care, public transportation not available at days/times needed, or perhaps the cost to work exceeds the economic viability of doing so).

Maybe consider changes that require ability to work? Or paid subsistence relocation to a place a suitable job is available? And I mean subsistence, like an SRO room or a bunk in a rooming house.

Finally, this is a discussion of food stamps, not UBI. So let's talk about food stamps.

[Great Minarchistan]

While I like the idea of UBI in theory part of me still feels like it would be pretty lacking as a singular means of welfare. People that can't work will need more than $10,000 per year and it feels pretty wasteful to just throw it at people that are well off.

Mandatory work for the unemployed. *nods*

*double digit inflation intensifies as unemployment drops to zero and wages are pushed to levels that shouldn't even be possible*

[Mosleyberg]

We shouldn't have food stamps. I agree with Trump's decision to send food boxes. Lowering the amount people get would also be smart. It is meant to be a temporary program. If the person is disabled they would not see a cut to how much food they get.

[Great Minarchistan]

Collapse of the Soviet Union. Best example of this. Checkmate commie.

But the Russian economy tanked when they switched to free market. The GDP per capita didn't recover until almost 2005.

Heavily debatable, as USSR was already a zombie economy ever since Brezhnev, with a creeping GDPpc growth over almost two decades. Given the amount of toxic investments done by the USSR's government that likely ended up causing that, cleansing it was a net good for the output in the long run.

[Dogmeat]

But the Russian economy tanked when they switched to free market. The GDP per capita didn't recover until almost 2005.

Heavily debatable, as USSR was already a zombie economy ever since Brezhnev, with a creeping GDPpc growth over almost two decades. Given the amount of toxic investments done by the USSR's government that likely ended up causing that, cleansing it was a net good for the output in the long run.

TBH, I don't actually have a horse in this race, and you may be right.

The point was that it's not a very good "checkmate" argument if, at first glance, it seems like the opposite of what you're suggesting is true.

[Scomagia]

Mandatory work for the unemployed. *nods*

THIS! Even the disabled can usually type or file documents. Mentally disabled can easily do things such as pick up trash, clean stuff, and they would love to do it usually. Non-disabled people could do other things like lawn maintenance, building projects, fill potholes, etc.

But if a welfare system is in place they will rebel. Same with minimum wage. UBI is the gateway to keeping them quiet and happy.

Now what about the disabled who can do no productive work at all? I'll use my mother as an example; after decades of progression in her Rheumatoid Arthritis, she is essentially incapable of doing productive work. Her hands are practically useless, even for simple tasks such as eating, making typing essentially an impossibility. Her ability to file paperwork, a hand dependent activity, is similarly negligible. She has practically no flexibility in any of her joints, from her neck to her feet, so any bending, twisting, or lifting is basically out of the question. So, just what in the hell would you have her do?

Additionally, her treatment costs far exceed 10000 dollars a year. In fact, she'd burn through her entire UBI in about three months based on treatment costs alone. In the absence of programs like Medicaid/Medicare, even with a 20,000 dollar UBI, she would have to choose between treatment and living costs. What's your answer for people like her?