Right Wing Discussion Thread XIII: Do the Right thing

[Diopolis]

Poland is the first country in the EU to challenge the EU's supremacy in law - today it has asked its own Constitutional Tribunal to rule on whether the EU can reign supreme over the Polish constitution in areas where the constitution and the EU cannot coexist.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-campaign

Poland decided to blow up the Article 7 proceedings into more trouble following Macron's comments over the week where he said if Poland cannot govern itself "properly" other countries will. Which is a funny thing to say in that position but whatever.

Thoughts? Macron super dumb or not? He's already pissed off Salvini several times and the Lega Nord chief called for a referendum on the euro..

Macron seems to suffer from Hillaryitis, or the out-of-touch version of foot-in-mouth disease.

[Proctopeo]

Poland is the first country in the EU to challenge the EU's supremacy in law - today it has asked its own Constitutional Tribunal to rule on whether the EU can reign supreme over the Polish constitution in areas where the constitution and the EU cannot coexist.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-campaign

Poland decided to blow up the Article 7 proceedings into more trouble following Macron's comments over the week where he said if Poland cannot govern itself "properly" other countries will. Which is a funny thing to say in that position but whatever.

Thoughts? Macron super dumb or not? He's already pissed off Salvini several times and the Lega Nord chief called for a referendum on the euro..

Source on the Macron quote? I must have missed that.

Anyway, Poland's courts should have supremacy in cases where EU law and Polish law conflict.

[Fahran]

Society's meant for the collective well-being of people

Do we consent to be members of society? Or is society foisted upon us by the circumstances of our birth and rearing? If we're speaking of our earliest ancestors, their societies would have been based on ties of kinship, their social nature, and a common drive towards survival that was bolstered by pooled resources and labor. For us, however, are we not thrust into society in ignorance?

and the government of said society is clearly meant to be fully democratized in a voluntary manner of direct, participatory democracy. :3

Government must emerge from society itself and should not be perceived as synonymous with society or above it. We'll revisit this question shortly. First, let's discuss society.

Thoughts? Macron super dumb or not? He's already pissed off Salvini several times and the Lega Nord chief called for a referendum on the euro..

Macron invading Poland is laughable. Who does he think he is? Napoleon Bonaparte? It's like they're trying to push out Italy, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic.

[Uxupox]

All nations disappear and a world government is imposed

I think it’s ultimately inevitable but not until we start looking outward

Pretty much. Society is just going to become more interconnected as centuries go on.

[Erdogan in cool sunglasses]

Poland is the first country in the EU to challenge the EU's supremacy in law - today it has asked its own Constitutional Tribunal to rule on whether the EU can reign supreme over the Polish constitution in areas where the constitution and the EU cannot coexist.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-campaign

Poland decided to blow up the Article 7 proceedings into more trouble following Macron's comments over the week where he said if Poland cannot govern itself "properly" other countries will. Which is a funny thing to say in that position but whatever.

Thoughts? Macron super dumb or not? He's already pissed off Salvini several times and the Lega Nord chief called for a referendum on the euro..

Well, it's not exactly the truth that we are the first country which challenges the EU supremacy. In fact Germany did the same move in 2011 where their Constitutional Court decided that their own law is supreme to the EU.

We can easily predict that our Constitutional Tribunal will do the same (unless the EU take a few steps back) but it doesn't change much in the EU decision process. And in fact we probably won't respect the EU rules if they won't be good for us. Anyway the the things seems to come to the end finally.

[Torrocca]

Society's meant for the collective well-being of people

Do we consent to be members of society? Or is society foisted upon us by the circumstances of our birth and rearing? If we're speaking of our earliest ancestors, their societies would have been based on ties of kinship, their social nature, and a common drive towards survival that was bolstered by pooled resources and labor. For us, however, are we not thrust into society in ignorance?

I'd say it's dependent entirely on circumstances. An Anarchist society would imply a voluntary association with society, wherein participation within implies consent and a lack thereof implies a lack of consent. Other societies (most definitely all hierarchical ones) enforce a state of nonconsensual participation, however, through things like the taxation of homes or the division of land for private or state usage.

[Oil exporting People]

I think it’s ultimately inevitable but not until we start looking outward

Pretty much. Society is just going to become more interconnected as centuries go on.

That was the prevailing thesis but it's been discredited as of late due to new scholarship on past periods and review of contemporary data. For example, global trade and Foreign Direct Investment have been in decline for sometime.

[Oil exporting People]

Macron invading Poland is laughable. Who does he think he is? Napoleon Bonaparte? It's like they're trying to push out Italy, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic.

I'd love to see the French attempt to stage an invasion because the Poles would utterly tear them apart..

[Uxupox]

Pretty much. Society is just going to become more interconnected as centuries go on.

That was the prevailing thesis but it's been discredited as of late due to new scholarship on past periods and review of contemporary data. For example, global trade and Foreign Direct Investment have been in decline for sometime.

we will see tbh. Ideally Chinese and American markets will become more cooperative (and competitive in a non-hostile manner) but I honestly don't see this happening.

[Erdogan in cool sunglasses]

Macron invading Poland is laughable. Who does he think he is? Napoleon Bonaparte? It's like they're trying to push out Italy, Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic.

I'd love to see the French attempt to stage an invasion because the Poles would utterly tear them apart..

I guess at current state they aren't able to invade even Czech Republic.

[Fahran]

I'd say it's dependent entirely on circumstances. An Anarchist society would imply a voluntary association with society, wherein participation within implies consent and a lack thereof implies a lack of consent.

How would you decline to participate in society? A child cannot possibly give informed consent in one way or another, unless we acknowledge in them agency equivalent to the agency of an adult. Circumstances of birth still determine, at least initially, the society to which we belong. My point is that society is not by its nature a creedal or consensual thing. It occurs organically, whether we will it or not. The alternatives are immigration, change, or the life of a hermit.

[Oil exporting People]

That was the prevailing thesis but it's been discredited as of late due to new scholarship on past periods and review of contemporary data. For example, global trade and Foreign Direct Investment have been in decline for sometime.

we will see tbh. Ideally Chinese and American markets will become more cooperative (and competitive in a non-hostile manner) but I honestly don't see this happening.

On historically level, it's already been noted; there isn't a single continuous stream of greater connections but rather boom and burst periods. The 16th Century, with the colonization of the Americans and the emergence of European trading networks to Asia is now generally regarded, for example, as a Globalization period.

As for the here and now:

The constant flow of goods from Asia to the United States was briefly interrupted last month after Hanjin, the South Korean shipping line, filed for bankruptcy, stranding several dozen of its cargo ships on the high seas.

It was a moment that made literal the stagnation of globalization.

The growth of trade among nations is among the most consequential and controversial economic developments of recent decades. Yet despite the noisy debates, which have reached new heights during this presidential campaign, it is a little-noticed fact that trade is no longer rising. The volume of global trade was flat in the first quarter of 2016, then fell by 0.8 percent in the second quarter, according to statisticians in the Netherlands, which happens to keep the best data.

The United States is no exception to the broader trend. The total value of American imports and exports fell by more than $200 billion last year. Through the first nine months of 2016, trade fell by an additional $470 billion.

It is the first time since World War II that trade with other nations has declined during a period of economic growth.

Sluggish global economic growth is both a cause and a result of the slowdown. In better times, prosperity increased trade and trade increased prosperity. Now the wheel is turning in the opposite direction. Reduced consumption and investment are dragging on trade, which is slowing growth.

But there are also signs that the slowdown is becoming structural. Developed nations appear to be backing away from globalization.

The World Trade Organization’s most recent round of global trade talks ended in failure last year. The Trans-Pacific Partnership, an attempt to forge a regional agreement among Pacific Rim nations, also is foundering. It is opposed by both major-party American presidential candidates. Meanwhile, new barriers are rising. Britain is leaving the European Union. The World Trade Organization said in July that its members had put in place more than 2,100 new restrictions on trade since 2008.

“Curbing free trade would be stalling an engine that has brought unprecedented welfare gains around the world over many decades,” Christine Lagarde, managing director of the International Monetary Fund, wrote in a recent call for nations to renew their commitment to trade.

Against the tide, the European Union and Canada signed a new trade deal on Sunday.

It may be hard, however, to muster public enthusiasm in the United States and other developed nations. The benefits of globalization have accrued disproportionately to the wealthy, while the costs have fallen on displaced workers, and governments have failed to ease their pain.

The Walmart revolution is over. During the 1990s, global trade grew more than twice as fast as the global economy. Europe united. China became a factory town. Tariffs came down. Transportation costs plummeted. It was the Walmart Era.

But those changes have played out. Europe is fraying around the edges; low tariffs and transportation costs cannot get much lower. And China’s role in the global economy is changing. The country is making more of what it consumes, and consuming more of what it makes. In addition, China’s maturing industrial sector increasingly makes its own parts. The International Monetary Fund reported last year that the share of imported components in products “Made in China” has fallen to 35 percent from 60 percent in the 1990s.

The result: The I.M.F. study calculated that a 1 percent increase in global growth increased trade volumes by 2.5 percent in the 1990s, while in recent years, the same growth has increased trade by just 0.7 percent.

Hanjin, like other big shipping companies, bet that global trade would continue to expand rapidly. In 2009, the world’s cargo lines had enough room to carry 12.1 million of the standardized shipping containers that have played a crucial, if quiet, role in the rise of global trade. By last year, they had room for 19.9 million — much of it unneeded.

India is not China redux. Most trade flows among developed nations. The McKinsey Global Institute calculates that 15 countries account for roughly 63 percent of the global traffic in goods and services, and for an even larger share of financial investment.

China joined this club the old-fashioned way: It used factories to build a middle class. But the automation of factory work is making it harder for other nations to follow. Dani Rodrik, a Harvard economist, calculates that manufacturing employment in India and other developing nations has already peaked, a phenomenon he calls premature deindustrialization.

The weakness of the global economy is exacerbating the trend. Infrastructure investment by multinational corporations declined for the third straight year in 2015, according to the United Nations. It predicts a further decline this year. But even if growth rebounds, automation reduces the incentives to invest in the low-labor-cost developing world, and it reduces the benefits of such investments for the residents of developing countries.

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The political reaction is global, too. The economist Branko Milanovic published a chart in 2012 that is sometimes called the elephant chart, because there is a certain resemblance. It shows real incomes rose significantly for most of the world’s population between 1988 and 2008, but not for most residents of the United States and other developed countries.

The chart is often presented as a depiction of the consequences of globalization. The reality is more complicated, but perception is undeniable. Voters in developed nations increasingly view themselves as the victims of trade with the developing world — and a backlash is brewing.

Donald J. Trump’s presidential campaign is an obvious manifestation, as is Hillary Clinton’s backing off from her support of the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal. A study published in April found that voters in congressional districts hit hardest by job losses are more likely to reject moderate candidates, turning instead to candidates who take more extreme positions.

Economic stagnation is turning European voters against trade, too.

Professor Rodrik said that proponents of free trade were guilty of overstating the benefits and understating the costs. “Because they failed to provide those distinctions and caveats, now trade gets tarred with all kinds of ills even when it’s not deserved,” he said. “If the demagogues and nativists making nonsensical claims about trade are getting a hearing, it is trade’s cheerleaders that deserve some of the blame.”

[Oil exporting People]

I'd love to see the French attempt to stage an invasion because the Poles would utterly tear them apart..

I guess at current state they aren't able to invade even Czech Republic.

Wouldn't surprise me. Poland has emerged as the major Non-Russian military in the last few years without much recognition.

[Kaggeceria]

Poland is the first country in the EU to challenge the EU's supremacy in law - today it has asked its own Constitutional Tribunal to rule on whether the EU can reign supreme over the Polish constitution in areas where the constitution and the EU cannot coexist.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-campaign

Poland decided to blow up the Article 7 proceedings into more trouble following Macron's comments over the week where he said if Poland cannot govern itself "properly" other countries will. Which is a funny thing to say in that position but whatever.

Thoughts? Macron super dumb or not? He's already pissed off Salvini several times and the Lega Nord chief called for a referendum on the euro..

Talking about Italy - only 44% of Italians would vote to stay in the European Union in a referendum, the lowest in the EU, below the UK, as of the recent Eurobarometer survey. The same survey says only 54% of Polish people disagree that the country would face a worse future outside of the EU, compared to 36% saying it would be better to be outside. Germans correctly analyse the economic power the EU gives them - 81% say they would be worse off outside of the EU. Britons are the only country to have a plurality who think that Britain will be better off outside of the EU than in, 44% to 43%, but regardless in the same survey they found Remain takes a lead.

POLAND YES

[Torrocca]

I'd say it's dependent entirely on circumstances. An Anarchist society would imply a voluntary association with society, wherein participation within implies consent and a lack thereof implies a lack of consent.

How would you decline to participate in society? A child cannot possibly give informed consent in one way or another, unless we acknowledge in them agency equivalent to the agency of an adult. Circumstances of birth still determine, at least initially, the society to which we belong. My point is that society is not by its nature a creedal or consensual thing. It occurs organically, whether we will it or not. The alternatives are immigration, change, or the life of a hermit.

Yes, technically, those alternatives would be the only alternatives in an Anarchist frame; however, those wishing to leave their society would have the choice to go just about anywhere, and would be more able to either become self-sufficient individualists - if they chose - or easily integrate into another community with values more in-line with themselves as a person.

In regards to being born in such a society, that's a much more blatant issue, regarding consent. Technically, yes, the child wouldn't be able to consent about their participation in society, nor would they have the full agency of an adult (until maturity at least, unless some communities/families decided otherwise), but the child would have, arguably, more freedoms than in other societies. This can actually be seen in the Zapatista communities in their schools, where learning's based on the democratic consensus of classrooms, so the students choose what they'll learn.

[Washington Resistance Army]

This can actually be seen in the Zapatista communities in their schools, where learning's based on the democratic consensus of classrooms, so the students choose what they'll learn.

Holy fuck that's retarded lmao

[Diopolis]

How would you decline to participate in society? A child cannot possibly give informed consent in one way or another, unless we acknowledge in them agency equivalent to the agency of an adult. Circumstances of birth still determine, at least initially, the society to which we belong. My point is that society is not by its nature a creedal or consensual thing. It occurs organically, whether we will it or not. The alternatives are immigration, change, or the life of a hermit.

Yes, technically, those alternatives would be the only alternatives in an Anarchist frame; however, those wishing to leave their society would have the choice to go just about anywhere, and would be more able to either become self-sufficient individualists - if they chose - or easily integrate into another community with values more in-line with themselves as a person.

In regards to being born in such a society, that's a much more blatant issue, regarding consent. Technically, yes, the child wouldn't be able to consent about their participation in society, nor would they have the full agency of an adult (until maturity at least, unless some communities/families decided otherwise), but the child would have, arguably, more freedoms than in other societies. This can actually be seen in the Zapatista communities in their schools, where learning's based on the democratic consensus of classrooms, so the students choose what they'll learn.

Ladies and gentlemen, democracy- now it's ruining our schools too!

[Oil exporting People]

This can actually be seen in the Zapatista communities in their schools, where learning's based on the democratic consensus of classrooms, so the students choose what they'll learn.

Holy fuck that's retarded lmao

There's a reason Communism collapsed.

[Mattopilos II]

If communism used that more people would support it.
Never has though.

[Oil exporting People]

If communism used that more people would support it.
Never has though.

They'd also be dumb as shit and banging rocks together soon enough as well.

[Fahran]

Yes, technically, those alternatives would be the only alternatives in an Anarchist frame; however, those wishing to leave their society would have the choice to go just about anywhere, and would be more able to either become self-sufficient individualists - if they chose - or easily integrate into another community with values more in-line with themselves as a person.

Short of revolution, which would entail coercion and violence, change would require accepting the initial coercion implicit in society and abiding by the social rules therein established in a bid to change those rules. This makes anarchist society functionally similar to hierarchical society in that both are predicated on coercion and acquiescence to coercion.

Living as a hermit would deprive you of familial and social ties, likely contributing to a degenerative state of being. While liberals are fond of discussing the individual in abstract terms, the individual can only survive and acquire meaning within the context of society or the spiritual.

Emigration remains the last option, but this too has its caveat and shortcomings. First, would emigrants have the right to immigrate to any other society, even against the wishes of that society's inhabitants? If land and resources are limited, can one society refuse usage to the emigrants on the grounds that it would harm their society to do so?

In regards to being born in such a society, that's a much more blatant issue, regarding consent. Technically, yes, the child wouldn't be able to consent about their participation in society, nor would they have the full agency of an adult (until maturity at least, unless some communities/families decided otherwise), but the child would have, arguably, more freedoms than in other societies. This can actually be seen in the Zapatista communities in their schools, where learning's based on the democratic consensus of classrooms, so the students choose what they'll learn.

So then one can elect to abandon or acquiesce to coercion and that is all? What happens in a classroom setting when a minority of students wants to learn something different from the majority of students?

[Erdogan in cool sunglasses]

I guess at current state they aren't able to invade even Czech Republic.

Wouldn't surprise me. Poland has emerged as the major Non-Russian military in the last few years without much recognition.

In raw numbers France overpower us at least by half but there are few advantages on Polish side:
1) In the case of defense war we are at home which is usually easier position.
2) Large portion of French military is bonded in Africa and in metropolitan France.
3) Naval power means nothing at the Baltic Sea.
4) French don't have a will to fight. In the case of offensive war they would rather start rebel against their president instead of dying for him.

But of course it's all fantasy. Macron is a man who speak a lot, usually without any sense but is not willing to do something.

[Oil exporting People]

Wouldn't surprise me. Poland has emerged as the major Non-Russian military in the last few years without much recognition.

In raw numbers France overpower us at least by half but there are few advantages on Polish side:
1) In the case of defense war we are at home which is usually easier position.
2) Large portion of French military is bonded in Africa and in metropolitan France.
3) Naval power means nothing at the Baltic Sea.
4) French don't have a will to fight. In the case of offensive war they would rather start rebel against their president instead of dying for him.

But of course it's all fantasy. Macron is a man who speak a lot, usually without any sense but is not willing to do something.

In terms of active personnel the Poles have surpassed the French and are also due to complete their modernization program soon enough; France, meanwhile, has been consistently doing budget cuts for sometime now.

[Mattopilos II]

If communism used that more people would support it.
Never has though.

They'd also be dumb as shit and banging rocks together soon enough as well.

I have a feeling you aren’t very good at holding serious discussion. Not a surprise, but certainly a shame. The schooling system in communist countries (if you call any of them actually communist) were shit for entirely different reason, and I have my doubts that this form of organisation would be the worst type. I, and I doubt you, have actually looked into what is involved so we are using our own preconceptions to judge it.

[Kaggeceria]

Holy fuck that's retarded lmao

There's a reason Communism collapsed.

"What're we gonna learn about today, kids?"

"I wanna learn about monster trucks!"