"Torture Doesn't Work"

[Estanglia]

Again, another "they will" answer.
Some questions that I want you to answer honestly:
1) How will you know the victim actually knows anything?
2) How do you know that telling the truth is the only way to stop torture?
3) How will you verify the info?
4) Why should the victim trust that the torture will stop once they hand over the info and they won't be killed/made to disappear post-torture?

I feel that "1)" is a question thats impossible to answer because each investigation and situation will be different. But suffice to say, you don't want to use torture where there is sufficient doubt that the person probably knows nothing.

2) You mean, how will they know? They don't. But they are in pain and you've told them that telling the truth will make it stop... and its really their only chance even where they don't really trust you, their instinct is to make it stop at all cost.

3) the same way that you verify any other fact stated by a witness in an investigation? Probably physical confirmation of some sort of the information?

4) because everyone needs hope... and they'd want it to stop so badly they'd believe or go with anything that's presented as a solution to them, the alternative being infinite/further torture?

1) Makes sense
2) Again, they could've told the truth and not be believed.
3) Again, if you can verify it easily, then you'd need to know the info beforehand. Otherwise, it would take so long to sift through the inevitable BS that the info might be redundant. What happens then?
4) See point 2). Then they have no hope.

[Washington Resistance Army]

We unironically should ban GoT.

But I actually like GoT. Blood, action, and boobs man.

Too bad, it should be declared contraband and anyone spreading it's nonsense shall be fed to the wolves. It's the only way to stops Kefkashrooms nonsensically bad posts.

What if you don't know the truth but I'm going to keep torturing you until you tell me it?

then that would be one hell of a seriously unfortunate situation for me

Gee, it's almost like it's a bad fucking idea, imagine that.

[The New California Republic]

But then you don't know if what they've told you is true.

you can confirm physical evidence

I tell the torturer where I am meeting a contact tomorrow. Where is the physical evidence to confirm that they will be there?

[Infected Mushroom]

it doesn't magically... it incentives it

if they tell lies, it will just result in more torture and they are being tortured (presently) they are not really interested in experimentation

if I'm being tortured, I'm going to go with what I'm told (that it stops when I tell them the truth)... I'd go with that because pain is not fun

And what happens when you tell the truth but they don't believe it or they think you know more and they continue the torture? At that point, a person would say anything to make the torture stop.

if they've told the authorities the truth, what incentive do the authorities have to further torture the person upon confirmation of the truth?

[Infected Mushroom]

you can confirm physical evidence

I tell the torturer where I am meeting a contact tomorrow. Where is the physical evidence to confirm that they will be there?

it appears tomorrow?

[The South Falls]

And what happens when you tell the truth but they don't believe it or they think you know more and they continue the torture? At that point, a person would say anything to make the torture stop.

if they've told the authorities the truth, what incentive do the authorities have to further torture the person upon confirmation of the truth?

The fact that coercion is extremely unreliable, hatred of their culture, etc.

[Azadistan-land of the free]

And what happens when you tell the truth but they don't believe it or they think you know more and they continue the torture? At that point, a person would say anything to make the torture stop.

if they've told the authorities the truth, what incentive do the authorities have to further torture the person upon confirmation of the truth?

The same reasons anyone would torture someone for little reason, Also anger at what they did or a desire to bully anti-government people

[Washington Resistance Army]

And what happens when you tell the truth but they don't believe it or they think you know more and they continue the torture? At that point, a person would say anything to make the torture stop.

if they've told the authorities the truth, what incentive do the authorities have to further torture the person upon confirmation of the truth?

They don't, they'd probably just kill the person being tortured and be done with it.

[Dylar]

And what happens when you tell the truth but they don't believe it or they think you know more and they continue the torture? At that point, a person would say anything to make the torture stop.

if they've told the authorities the truth, what incentive do the authorities have to further torture the person upon confirmation of the truth?

How do the authorities know that it is the truth? They can't just take the victim's word for granted

[The New California Republic]

I tell the torturer where I am meeting a contact tomorrow. Where is the physical evidence to confirm that they will be there?

it appears tomorrow?

Pointless. By then it is too late. The window of opportunity is gone. How will they verify that my contact will be there?

[Salandriagado]

I tell the torturer where I am meeting a contact tomorrow. Where is the physical evidence to confirm that they will be there?

it appears tomorrow?

So I get a whole day off being tortured! And if it doesn't happen, then (a) you can just say your contact must have been spooked by the attempts to grab them; and (b) your contact gets a warning and goes into safety.

[Estanglia]

And what happens when you tell the truth but they don't believe it or they think you know more and they continue the torture? At that point, a person would say anything to make the torture stop.

if they've told the authorities the truth, what incentive do the authorities have to further torture the person upon confirmation of the truth?

For the simple reason of to get more info out of you.

[Estanglia]

they don't have to trust you, not necessarily... maybe they don't trust you, but the way things are going, its their only perceived slim chance of making it stop

Good God, IM.

Look, you're torturing me. After a certain point, which is when I break under the duress, my priorities change. I'm not concerned about "preserving my nation", or whatever noble cause I'm after, but instead solely focused on "make the pain stop", or "make the abuse stop", or "make the humiliation stop" - you (I hope) get the idea.

Now, even if I do know the truth, there's no guarantee I'll tell you the truth, because in my mind, I will think that a) you will not believe that the truth is the truth and b) I don't believe that the truth will satisfy you. So, I make up stuff that I think - with my tortured and exhausted mind - will satisfy you more than the truth.

I literally have no idea how else to explain this to you.

Exactly.

[Salandriagado]

And what happens when you tell the truth but they don't believe it or they think you know more and they continue the torture? At that point, a person would say anything to make the torture stop.

if they've told the authorities the truth, what incentive do the authorities have to further torture the person upon confirmation of the truth?

If they've already told the truth about one thing, then they're confirmed as both having valuable information and being reasonably easy to break using torture. That makes them a perfect person to keep torturing, just on the off-chance that they know anything else.

[The South Falls]

it appears tomorrow?

So I get a whole day off being tortured! And if it doesn't happen, then (a) you can just say your contact must have been spooked by the attempts to grab them; and (b) your contact gets a warning and goes into safety.

You can just lie as much as you want. If you provide someone with compadres, and good food/quarters, they will talk to those compadres, and spill beans, which you can pick up with a mic.

[The New California Republic]

it appears tomorrow?

So I get a whole day off being tortured! And if it doesn't happen, then (a) you can just say your contact must have been spooked by the attempts to grab them; and (b) your contact gets a warning and goes into safety.

Exactly. The OP has no counter to this. It really exposes the ridiculousness of torture for extracting information, as it can give rise to unverifiable information.

[The DEMOND]

There are many arguments against torture and some of them even make a bit of sense. However, one thing I never understood was the assertion:

"Torture doesn't work."

I don't understand how anyone can say it doesn't work/can't produce results. I have heard many liberal-minded people claim this while I was at university... where they would say something along the lines of "why would any government ever use torture? those tortured would just keep making things up to annoy the authorities/frustrate them. Torture could never work." I have always felt that this was a somewhat delusional position and that people would eat their own words under unfortunate situations.

Its one thing to say that torture is a "human rights abuse" or that its not necessarily always the best go-to method for extracting information... but to say it doesn't work? Seems a bit strong.

Fact of the matter is, threats do produce results. When threats are backed up by the definite use of force and pain inducement... I can't see how someone can hold out. Now of course... if you have NOTHING to tell the government because you in fact know nothing, you're kind of in a doomed position. But if you do have something... I don't see how it won't be extracted (just a question of time frame). A person without any kind of anti-torture training would probably yield in minutes...

Not sure what your thoughts on this subject are.

Now let's discuss a little thought experiment:

You are a criminal and you have some information the government wants from you. You don't want to give it to them. After some back-and-forth, the government decides to resort to torture. They say to you:

"Since you refuse to tell us what we need to know... we will keep hurting you until you do tell us."

They start to torture you and it goes on and on and it doesn't stop until you give them what they want (if you pass out from the pain, you get reset and it continues). Assume that they use a method that is in the style of Ramsay Bolton.

The questions I'd like you to ponder, think about, and then explain are as follows:

1. How long would you be able to hold out? A few minutes? 1 hour? Days? Months? Years? Try to estimate.
2. How do you reconcile the phrase "torture doesn't work" with the fact that 99-100 percent of people in the above situation (including yourself probably) would in a pretty short amount of time, tell the government what they need to know to avoid the torture?
3. What do you think in general about the phrase, "Torture Doesn't Work"... is there a way to re-phrase/clarify it so that its a more defensible position?

1. I'll give myself 10 minutes. And I feel that this is being EXTREMELY generous.

2. There is no need to reconcile it because it can't be reconciled. Its a misleading slogan. Torture does work. Anyone who actually has the information is going to give it up. Its just a problematic method in the sense that if the person was wrongly suspected and in fact knows nothing... they will be tortured ad infinitum. But you can be sure that if anyone knows anything, they will divulge. This is why its historically been used throughout history by the police and military forces.

3.

It doesn't work in getting legal convictions. It doesn't work if there isn't any actual information from the person tortured (they can't gain clairvoyance while being tortured if they are innocent). It doesn't work if you want to stay true to human rights.

However, if someone has got something... they are going to tell you pretty soon if you use a sufficiently painful method. Its just a matter of how far you want to go.

In general I understand other objections to torture but a blanket "torture doesn't work" statement just doesn't hold up.

Well, in da holy hell the torture isn't get results, if there were results the people needn't suffer, BUT IT'S DA HELL.

[The South Falls]

So I get a whole day off being tortured! And if it doesn't happen, then (a) you can just say your contact must have been spooked by the attempts to grab them; and (b) your contact gets a warning and goes into safety.

Exactly. The OP has no counter to this. It really exposes the ridiculousness of torture for extracting information, as it can give rise to unverifiable information.

Don't forget their are more effective, less costly methods.

[Infected Mushroom]

So I get a whole day off being tortured! And if it doesn't happen, then (a) you can just say your contact must have been spooked by the attempts to grab them; and (b) your contact gets a warning and goes into safety.

Exactly. The OP has no counter to this. It really exposes the ridiculousness of torture for extracting information, as it can give rise to unverifiable information.

it can give rise to unverifiable information, but only in the sense that any other method can give rise to unverifiable information

the fact that it can be used to get verifiable information shows that it can work from time to time, that the threshold has been met

[Sovaal]

But I actually like GoT. Blood, action, and boobs man.

Go watch Vikings. Or Knightfall. Basically the same thing

Tired watching Knightfall, couldn’t. Anyway, getting off track.

For IM, nothing’s stopping the victim from just feeding the torturer false information.

[Vistulange]

Exactly. The OP has no counter to this. It really exposes the ridiculousness of torture for extracting information, as it can give rise to unverifiable information.

it can give rise to unverifiable information, but only in the sense that any other method can give rise to unverifiable information

the fact that it can be used to get verifiable information shows that it can work from time to time, that the threshold has been met

The problem is the volume of useless information compared to the volume of useful information.

Other methods which beget less useless information are actually used. Torture isn't, mostly, because it is useless.

[Infected Mushroom]

Go watch Vikings. Or Knightfall. Basically the same thing

Tired watching Knightfall, couldn’t. Anyway, getting off track.

For IM, nothing’s stopping the victim from just feeding the torturer false information.

except that the torturer has an interest in making the torture stop and feeding false information is known to not result in that

[Sovaal]

But I actually like GoT. Blood, action, and boobs man.

Too bad, it should be declared contraband and anyone spreading it's nonsense shall be fed to the wolves. It's the only way to stops Kefkashrooms nonsensically bad posts.

then that would be one hell of a seriously unfortunate situation for me

Gee, it's almost like it's a bad fucking idea, imagine that.

But we have an entire Artic circle we could send them too.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Tired watching Knightfall, couldn’t. Anyway, getting off track.

For IM, nothing’s stopping the victim from just feeding the torturer false information.

except that the torturer has an interest in making the torture stop and feeding false information is known to not result in that

The torturer has no interest in making it stop.

[Infected Mushroom]

it can give rise to unverifiable information, but only in the sense that any other method can give rise to unverifiable information

the fact that it can be used to get verifiable information shows that it can work from time to time, that the threshold has been met

The problem is the volume of useless information compared to the volume of useful information.

Other methods which beget less useless information are actually used. Torture isn't, mostly, because it is useless.

How much volume of useless information do you expect to get?

How long are you expecting the person to hold out? And again, they have no incentive to lie. They have every incentive to just tell the truth and out of hope of ending the torture permanently.