"Torture Doesn't Work"

[The Parkus Empire]

I don't get it either, torture is actually very effective at expediting trials.

[Saiwania]

Whether torture works or not, is besides the point. I think that there is plenty of value to be found in making someone suffer, if the circumstances call for it. Torture must continue or at least be permitted when alternatives aren't forthcoming.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I don't get it either, torture is actually very effective at expediting trials.

The fifth amendment of the U.S.Constitution be damned.

[Grenartia]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff

More humane methods of interrogations exists, while torture works, it's just unethical to use when other, less painful ways exist.

You know its weird when even Nazis used more humane interrogation techniques than what Mushroom is proposing.

[The South Falls]

The reason why we stopped police coercion is because people would throw out lies and make false confessions. Torture is the same.

Confessions are one thing. A person will "confess" when tortured and the confession isn't worth much since we can't know if its a real confession or just one procured to avoid pain.

However, what about with respect to actual information (ex where I've hidden the bombs or where the next drug trade will happen etc?). I believe that for those types of information, it would work.

I probably wouldn't. You could say anything.

[Infected Mushroom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff

More humane methods of interrogations exists, while torture works, it's just unethical to use when other, less painful ways exist.

You know its weird when even Nazis used more humane interrogation techniques than what Mushroom is proposing.

Did I propose it?

[The Parkus Empire]

I don't get it either, torture is actually very effective at expediting trials.

The fifth amendment of the U.S.Constitution be damned.

Oh, sorry, I thought by torture OP meant enhanced interrogation techniques. If he means cruel or unusual punishment, that obviously doesn't work for anything, it's after conviction.

[Grenartia]

they aren't guaranteed to be telling the truth the first time but they will be eventually right?

unless you're saying they can be tortured indefinitely without ever yielding (which again, just seems a bit unrealistic)

How can you know the information they're giving you is false without already knowing the information you're torturing them for?

[United Imperial Systems]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff

More humane methods of interrogations exists, while torture works, it's just unethical to use when other, less painful ways exist.

You know its weird when even Nazis used more humane interrogation techniques than what Mushroom is proposing.

It's one of those Nazis who were the exception, were the method not effective, it wouldn't be used so much and Scharff wouldn't be known for his interrogation techniques.
Even the U.S took note of his technique, and he was teaching other Luftwaffe officers about it.

[Risottia]

Torture doesn't work because the torturer has no actual way to know whether the tortured is telling the truth or merely confirming the torturer's bias to avoid pain.

[Infected Mushroom]

Confessions are one thing. A person will "confess" when tortured and the confession isn't worth much since we can't know if its a real confession or just one procured to avoid pain.

However, what about with respect to actual information (ex where I've hidden the bombs or where the next drug trade will happen etc?). I believe that for those types of information, it would work.

I probably wouldn't. You could say anything.

So what you're saying to me is that you can be tortured ad infinitum and yet you would never yield the information?

[Evil Lord Bane]

It's more accurate to say that some forms of torture work better than others. Torture isn't always about breaking bones and pealing skin off, it has many types, physical, mental, emotional, etc. Each type has their own sub-types. The water boarding the CIA and Army did in order to make terrorists talk was both physical and emotional. The Roman Empire used rape, on both men and women, as a form of torture and punishment. Sleep depravation is a good example of mental torture, and is still in use today. Simply threating to do harm to someone's family is a good example of emotional torture. Each type and sub-type of torture has it's own degree of success (or failure).

The thing about torture is, it's obsolete. We have drugs, some developed by the Nazis during the Second World War, that are still being used to get people to talk, often without realizing it. There are also other forms of mind control, including hypnosis, that can do the same. Even so, there are still nations that insist on doing things the old fashioned way.

[Infected Mushroom]

Torture doesn't work because the torturer has no actual way to know whether rhe tortured is telling the truth or merely confirming the torturer's bias to avoid pain.

Some time could be wasted if the person is giving up false information, but there are definitely ways to confirm. Its quite useless in extracting a foolproof confession but if you're looking to extract actual information such as numbers, locations, names then it would definitely be extracted (if the person has the information).

I don't know about you...

But if I have information they want and I'm getting tortured, I might make up some information once (maybe even twice) to buy me some reprieve if I'm feeling particularly brave. But the knowledge that wasting their time will make the return of the torture inevitable (and will probably amplify the methods) would be a strong disincentive.

[The South Falls]

Torture doesn't work because the torturer has no actual way to know whether rhe tortured is telling the truth or merely confirming the torturer's bias to avoid pain.

Some time could be wasted if the person is giving up false information, but there are definitely ways to confirm. Its quite useless in extracting a foolproof confession but if you're looking to extract actual information such as numbers, locations, names then it would definitely be extracted (if the person has the information).

I don't know about you...

But if I have information they want and I'm getting tortured, I might make up some information once (maybe even twice) to buy me some reprieve if I'm feeling particularly brave. But the knowledge that wasting their time will make the return of the torture inevitable (and will probably amplify the methods) would be a strong disincentive.

For you. People who's convictions and beliefs overwhelm that thought will hold out until they did. Because they eventually will. Then, a valuable source of info is lost.

[The Parkus Empire]

Torture doesn't work because the torturer has no actual way to know whether the tortured is telling the truth or merely confirming the torturer's bias to avoid pain.

As with those who turn state's evidence to avoid prison.

[Sougra]

So are you saying that if you were in the situation described in the OP that you would be able to take infinite torture without ever yielding the information?

it just sounds a bit unbelievable

The problem lies in the fact that if you're under such excruciating pain, you'd do anything to stop it. Torture is normally used in order to extract some very specific information, so they have a preconceived notion of what you do and don't know. If you tell someone the truth who's torturing you and they don't believe you're either telling the truth or the whole truth, then you're screwed. So what do you do? Lie. You lie and tell them whatever they want to hear in order to make the torture stop. You'd tell them something that isn't true, but they think is, in order to escape.

Think about it like this:

You're a criminal related to a major drug gang that they think has sensitive information. But you don't, all you know is that there's a shipment of high quality cocaine coming in, but you don't know anything else. Under questioning, you tell them this. They believe you, but they think you know more. So, they start to torture you, but you have nothing else to say. You're under immense pain. You know that they won't stop torturing you until you tell them what you want to hear. So what do you do? Most of us would make up anything to stop it.

There are far better methods of extracting information from criminals. One method is called pride and ego down, where you attack the criminal's pride, and in order to redeem themselves, they tell you information involuntary.

Do you want to know what the most successful Nazi interrogator did to make his victims confess? All of his peers were ruthless and were seen as enemies, so nobody told them anything. So, what he did was something very simple. Befriend them. He'd come back to the lonely prisoners and offer them support, sympathy, and a shoulder to cry on. He'd take them for walks in the forest where they were the only two people there. In their desperation for companionship and human interaction, they'd reveal small pieces of information without knowing it, and he'd get all the information he'd need to tell people where the Jewish people were or what was being hidden from them. Basically, torture isn't anywhere near the best way to gather information and sensitive intelligence.

[Potthan]

Even if the information given is correct, by the time the criminal gave up the info the people he's working for have already noticed he's missing and likely taken measures to prevent that information being correct (IE: Change of plans or moving to a new position)

Perhaps

How long do you anticipate they would be able to realistically hold out though if you're using brutal methods of torture?

If it was someone who had information worth torturing for you guarantee they're pretty deep within the circle. An hour would be lucky, so maybe 5 or 6 hours.

[Juristonia]

So what you're saying to me is that you can be tortured ad infinitum and yet you would never yield the information?

I would. I'd yield tons of information.
I'd yield whatever information it took to make the torture stop, no matter how mind-blowingly stupid and ridiculous the information might be.

Which is exactly the problem.
People would say anything.

[United Imperial Systems]

So what you're saying to me is that you can be tortured ad infinitum and yet you would never yield the information?

I would. I'd yield tons of information.
I'd yield whatever information it took to make the torture stop, no matter how mind-blowingly stupid and ridiculous the information might be.

Which is exactly the problem.
People would say anything.

Torture only works when the tortured thinks that the torture only stops when he tells the truth, and not something that sounds like the truth.

[Infected Mushroom]

So what you're saying to me is that you can be tortured ad infinitum and yet you would never yield the information?

I would. I'd yield tons of information.
I'd yield whatever information it took to make the torture stop, no matter how mind-blowingly stupid and ridiculous the information might be.

Which is exactly the problem.
People would say anything.

including the information that the authorities want right?

[United Imperial Systems]

I would. I'd yield tons of information.
I'd yield whatever information it took to make the torture stop, no matter how mind-blowingly stupid and ridiculous the information might be.

Which is exactly the problem.
People would say anything.

including the information that the authorities want right?

But how do you know that whatever is said is true or not?

[Infected Mushroom]

including the information that the authorities want right?

But how do you know that whatever is said is true or not?

the same way you know any other physical evidence is true or not?

[Dylar]

However, it is a no-brainer to me that when people are tortured... in the event that they do have the information that is actually being sought... they will pretty quickly give the information. If you have anti-torture training (ex special forces) you might be able to hold out for quite a bit longer but again, we are all only human.

Well, not really. You'll give the information that the torturers want to hear. If we look back at the Knights Templar, they were tortured and imprisoned by agents of King Phillip. And newer initiates in the Order admitted to sodomy, heresy and blasphemy just to make the torture stop. And if the leaders of the Order denied these accusations, they were put to death.

[Infected Mushroom]

So are you saying that if you were in the situation described in the OP that you would be able to take infinite torture without ever yielding the information?

it just sounds a bit unbelievable

The problem lies in the fact that if you're under such excruciating pain, you'd do anything to stop it. Torture is normally used in order to extract some very specific information, so they have a preconceived notion of what you do and don't know. If you tell someone the truth who's torturing you and they don't believe you're either telling the truth or the whole truth, then you're screwed. So what do you do? Lie. You lie and tell them whatever they want to hear in order to make the torture stop. You'd tell them something that isn't true, but they think is, in order to escape.

Think about it like this:

You're a criminal related to a major drug gang that they think has sensitive information. But you don't, all you know is that there's a shipment of high quality cocaine coming in, but you don't know anything else. Under questioning, you tell them this. They believe you, but they think you know more. So, they start to torture you, but you have nothing else to say. You're under immense pain. You know that they won't stop torturing you until you tell them what you want to hear. So what do you do? Most of us would make up anything to stop it.

There are far better methods of extracting information from criminals. One method is called pride and ego down, where you attack the criminal's pride, and in order to redeem themselves, they tell you information involuntary.

Do you want to know what the most successful Nazi interrogator did to make his victims confess? All of his peers were ruthless and were seen as enemies, so nobody told them anything. So, what he did was something very simple. Befriend them. He'd come back to the lonely prisoners and offer them support, sympathy, and a shoulder to cry on. He'd take them for walks in the forest where they were the only two people there. In their desperation for companionship and human interaction, they'd reveal small pieces of information without knowing it, and he'd get all the information he'd need to tell people where the Jewish people were or what was being hidden from them. Basically, torture isn't anywhere near the best way to gather information and sensitive intelligence.

this sounds like one hell of a painful situation to be in TBH...

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I would. I'd yield tons of information.
I'd yield whatever information it took to make the torture stop, no matter how mind-blowingly stupid and ridiculous the information might be.

Which is exactly the problem.
People would say anything.

including the information that the authorities want right?

This also works on the assumption the tortured individual actually has the information you want.

Also, """"""""authorities."""""""" lol, like any """"""""authority"""""""" who resorts to torture deserves to have authority.