"Torture Doesn't Work"

[Salandriagado]

How do you know that? Seriously, I've asked many times and your answer can be boiled down to "they will".

because they want to make the torture permanently stop and telling the truth is their only hope for that to happen (anything else will just result in further torture) right?

Besides needing you to have access to a fast oracle, this relies on the person that you are torturing trusting you.

[Admondir]

The tortured person can easily lie to the torturer and the torturer will believe it is the truth because the person is in incredible pain.

[Infected Mushroom]

because they want to make the torture permanently stop and telling the truth is their only hope for that to happen (anything else will just result in further torture) right?

Again, another "they will" answer.
Some questions that I want you to answer honestly:
1) How will you know the victim actually knows anything?
2) How do you know that telling the truth is the only way to stop torture?
3) How will you verify the info?
4) Why should the victim trust that the torture will stop once they hand over the info and they won't be killed/made to disappear post-torture?

I feel that "1)" is a question thats impossible to answer because each investigation and situation will be different. But suffice to say, you don't want to use torture where there is sufficient doubt that the person probably knows nothing.

2) You mean, how will they know? They don't. But they are in pain and you've told them that telling the truth will make it stop... and its really their only chance even where they don't really trust you, their instinct is to make it stop at all cost.

3) the same way that you verify any other fact stated by a witness in an investigation? Probably physical confirmation of some sort of the information?

4) because everyone needs hope... and they'd want it to stop so badly they'd believe or go with anything that's presented as a solution to them, the alternative being infinite/further torture?

[Washington Resistance Army]

But if you have the information needed to be sure that what they've told you is true, why do you need to torture them?

Winner winner chicken dinner.

[Estanglia]

I know. But up until know, you've seemed certain that the person tortured: a) has info
b) will give it over eventually
and c) won't lie or at least the true information can be verified.
and in that post, you've appeared to accept c) is wrong.

where did I say that where torture has been used, the person tortured 100% has the information?

I never stood by that

We have constantly said that they may not have info, and every followup post you continue to assume they have info.
Again, what if they have NO info?

[The New California Republic]

But if you have the information needed to be sure that what they've told you is true, why do you need to torture them?

Exactly. That is one of the reasons why the OP is avoiding answering my question, because it destroys their argument by pointing this out in a similar manner.

[Infected Mushroom]

because they want to make the torture permanently stop and telling the truth is their only hope for that to happen (anything else will just result in further torture) right?

Besides needing you to have access to a fast oracle, this relies on the person that you are torturing trusting you.

they don't have to trust you, not necessarily... maybe they don't trust you, but the way things are going, its their only perceived slim chance of making it stop

[Infected Mushroom]

But if you have the information needed to be sure that what they've told you is true, why do you need to torture them?

to narrow down possibilities?

perhaps you don't have any information, you need them to actually point out a needle in a complete haystack

[Vassenor]

Besides needing you to have access to a fast oracle, this relies on the person that you are torturing trusting you.

they don't have to trust you, not necessarily... maybe they don't trust you, but the way things are going, its their only perceived slim chance of making it stop

Which is why they will spout off anything in the hopes that it will be what you want to hear. It doesn't magically force them to tell you truths.

[Sovaal]

But if you have the information needed to be sure that what they've told you is true, why do you need to torture them?

Sadism I guess. That or IMs insatiable need for everything to be like GoT.

[Washington Resistance Army]

But if you have the information needed to be sure that what they've told you is true, why do you need to torture them?

Sadism I guess. That or IMs insatiable need for everything to be like GoT.

We unironically should ban GoT.

[The South Falls]

Again, another "they will" answer.
Some questions that I want you to answer honestly:
1) How will you know the victim actually knows anything?
2) How do you know that telling the truth is the only way to stop torture?
3) How will you verify the info?
4) Why should the victim trust that the torture will stop once they hand over the info and they won't be killed/made to disappear post-torture?

I feel that "1)" is a question thats impossible to answer because each investigation and situation will be different. But suffice to say, you don't want to use torture where there is sufficient doubt that the person probably knows nothing.

2) You mean, how will they know? They don't. But they are in pain and you've told them that telling the truth will make it stop... and its really their only chance even where they don't really trust you, their instinct is to make it stop at all cost.

3) the same way that you verify any other fact stated by a witness in an investigation? Probably physical confirmation of some sort of the information?

4) because everyone needs hope... and they'd want it to stop so badly they'd believe or go with anything that's presented as a solution to them, the alternative being infinite/further torture?

For most claims, it'll take quite a while to verify. For example, if the US had tortured Japanese POWs, it would take quite a while to verify that the bombing locations were wrong. Time enough that they'd have a reprieve. They thought the US was evil, so they would just have a reprieve.

[Dylar]

they don't have to trust you, not necessarily... maybe they don't trust you, but the way things are going, its their only perceived slim chance of making it stop

Which is why they will spout off anything in the hopes that it will be what you want to hear. It doesn't magically force them to tell you truths.

Unless you're Batman. Actually, would that be torture or just intimidation?

[Infected Mushroom]

they don't have to trust you, not necessarily... maybe they don't trust you, but the way things are going, its their only perceived slim chance of making it stop

Which is why they will spout off anything in the hopes that it will be what you want to hear. It doesn't magically force them to tell you truths.

it doesn't magically... it incentives it

if they tell lies, it will just result in more torture and they are being tortured (presently) they are not really interested in experimentation

if I'm being tortured, I'm going to go with what I'm told (that it stops when I tell them the truth)... I'd go with that because pain is not fun

[United Muscovite Nations]

But if you have the information needed to be sure that what they've told you is true, why do you need to torture them?

to narrow down possibilities?

perhaps you don't have any information, you need them to actually point out a needle in a complete haystack

But then you don't know if what they've told you is true.

[Vistulange]

Besides needing you to have access to a fast oracle, this relies on the person that you are torturing trusting you.

they don't have to trust you, not necessarily... maybe they don't trust you, but the way things are going, its their only perceived slim chance of making it stop

Good God, IM.

Look, you're torturing me. After a certain point, which is when I break under the duress, my priorities change. I'm not concerned about "preserving my nation", or whatever noble cause I'm after, but instead solely focused on "make the pain stop", or "make the abuse stop", or "make the humiliation stop" - you (I hope) get the idea.

Now, even if I do know the truth, there's no guarantee I'll tell you the truth, because in my mind, I will think that a) you will not believe that the truth is the truth and b) I don't believe that the truth will satisfy you. So, I make up stuff that I think - with my tortured and exhausted mind - will satisfy you more than the truth.

I literally have no idea how else to explain this to you.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Which is why they will spout off anything in the hopes that it will be what you want to hear. It doesn't magically force them to tell you truths.

it doesn't magically... it incentives it

if they tell lies, it will just result in more torture and they are being tortured (presently) they are not really interested in experimentation

if I'm being tortured, I'm going to go with what I'm told (that it stops when I tell them the truth)... I'd go with that because pain is not fun

What if you don't know the truth but I'm going to keep torturing you until you tell me it?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Which is why they will spout off anything in the hopes that it will be what you want to hear. It doesn't magically force them to tell you truths.

it doesn't magically... it incentives it

if they tell lies, it will just result in more torture and they are being tortured (presently) they are not really interested in experimentation

if I'm being tortured, I'm going to go with what I'm told (that it stops when I tell them the truth)... I'd go with that because pain is not fun

What if they actually don't know the information you want?

[The New California Republic]

You mean, how will they know? They don't. But they are in pain and you've told them that telling the truth will make it stop... and its really their only chance even where they don't really trust you, their instinct is to make it stop at all cost.

Wrong. The torturer and torture victim are not in a bubble. the torture victim's loyalty to friends, family, comrades, ideology etc can all affect the way that the torture victim reacts to the torture.

And again, how are you going to distinguish lie from truth, as used in the example I gave you, which you have refused to answer by the way...

[Salandriagado]

Besides needing you to have access to a fast oracle, this relies on the person that you are torturing trusting you.

they don't have to trust you, not necessarily... maybe they don't trust you, but the way things are going, its their only perceived slim chance of making it stop

Not at all: assuming you don't have an instant oracle (in which case you already know the answer, so don't need to torture them), they get a break in the torture every single time they tell you anything. Once they've given you the real information, you've got absolutely no reason not to just continue torturing them indefinitely on the off-chance that they know something you hadn't thought of.

[Sodoran Alesia]

Which is why they will spout off anything in the hopes that it will be what you want to hear. It doesn't magically force them to tell you truths.

it doesn't magically... it incentives it

if they tell lies, it will just result in more torture and they are being tortured (presently) they are not really interested in experimentation

if I'm being tortured, I'm going to go with what I'm told (that it stops when I tell them the truth)... I'd go with that because pain is not fun

And what happens when you tell the truth but they don't believe it or they think you know more and they continue the torture? At that point, a person would say anything to make the torture stop.

[Infected Mushroom]

to narrow down possibilities?

perhaps you don't have any information, you need them to actually point out a needle in a complete haystack

But then you don't know if what they've told you is true.

you can confirm physical evidence

[Sovaal]

Sadism I guess. That or IMs insatiable need for everything to be like GoT.

We unironically should ban GoT.

But I actually like GoT. Blood, action, and boobs man.

[Dylar]

We unironically should ban GoT.

But I actually like GoT. Blood, action, and boobs man.

Go watch Vikings. Or Knightfall. Basically the same thing

[Infected Mushroom]

it doesn't magically... it incentives it

if they tell lies, it will just result in more torture and they are being tortured (presently) they are not really interested in experimentation

if I'm being tortured, I'm going to go with what I'm told (that it stops when I tell them the truth)... I'd go with that because pain is not fun

What if you don't know the truth but I'm going to keep torturing you until you tell me it?

then that would be one hell of a seriously unfortunate situation for me